Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

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Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Hi,
The question was asked ages ago[1] in this mailing list, but it's still
valid: should I translate "example.com" and "example.net" in error
messages? The answer is "no".

It's not a matter of understanding what "example" means: example.com is
not a standard domain, is a domain managed directly by IANA, it can't be
registered or transferred, and it's especially reserved for
documentation purposes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example.com

In other words it's a domain guaranteed to be working and safe.

You shouldn't be using local domains, even if you own them. And if you
don't own them, you're using that domain name without explicit
permission, and potentially introducing an issue: you have no idea what
will happen to that domain, it might start publishing malware or
inappropriate content at any moment (or it might be already). That's
even worse when it comes to email addresses[2], you might be using a
real address in your example.

I don't think there are any active links in error pages, so users would
have to manually copy and paste that text to get to the website, but
it's still not OK.

I did a spot check on one string[3], and I can see at least these
locales using something different from example.com
cs: http://www.server.cz
es-CL: http://www.ejemplo.cl
es-ES: http://www.ejemplo.com
fr: http://www.exemple.com
gl: http://www.exemplo.com
hu: http://www.valami.hu
lt: http://www.mozilla.lt
nb-NO: http://www.eksempel.no
nn-NO: http://www.døme.no
pt-PT: http://www.exemplo.com
sk: http://www.priklad.com
sl: http://www.primer.si

They are all registered domains, in some cases belonging to commercial
activities, in most cases parked domains with ads.

If you want to check your locale, just go to
https://transvision.mozfr.org and search for "example." (without
quotes), since there are also a couple of strings using example.net

Francesco

[1]
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.l10n/65heUauHziI/eY5F64Z8DDsJ
[2]
https://transvision.mozfr.org/string/?entity=mail/chrome/messenger/accountCreation.dtd:email.placeholder&repo=central
[3]
https://transvision.mozfr.org/string/?entity=browser/chrome/overrides/netError.dtd:malformedURI.longDesc&repo=central
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Kim Ludvigsen-2
Den 25-05-2016 kl. 08:52 skrev Francesco Lodolo [:flod]:
> Hi,
> The question was asked ages ago[1] in this mailing list, but it's still
> valid: should I translate "example.com" and "example.net" in error
> messages? The answer is "no".

Always, no matter what? See below.

> It's not a matter of understanding what "example" means: example.com is
> not a standard domain, is a domain managed directly by IANA, it can't be
> registered or transferred, and it's especially reserved for
> documentation purposes.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example.com

Some countries have similar. In Denmark, "eksempel.dk" is owned by the
administrator of .dk, and it is reserved for documentation purposes the
same way as "example.com". Thus, we translate "example.com" to
"eksempel.dk".

--
Kind Regards
Kim Ludvigsen
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Il 25/05/16 10.25, Kim Ludvigsen ha scritto:

> Den 25-05-2016 kl. 08:52 skrev Francesco Lodolo [:flod]:
>> Hi,
>> The question was asked ages ago[1] in this mailing list, but it's still
>> valid: should I translate "example.com" and "example.net" in error
>> messages? The answer is "no".
>
> Always, no matter what? See below.
>
>> It's not a matter of understanding what "example" means: example.com is
>> not a standard domain, is a domain managed directly by IANA, it can't be
>> registered or transferred, and it's especially reserved for
>> documentation purposes.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example.com
>
> Some countries have similar. In Denmark, "eksempel.dk" is owned by the
> administrator of .dk, and it is reserved for documentation purposes
> the same way as "example.com". Thus, we translate "example.com" to
> "eksempel.dk".
>
Hi Kim,
That's a very good question. In this case I guess it's fine to keep
eksempel.dk, the page it loads is also very similar to example.com.
One cons is that it doesn't load in the https version, but I don't think
it's an issue (again, no direct links as far as I can tell, only text).

And I realized I checked central instead of aurora, so there are more
translated domains:
br: http://www.skouer.com
ca: http://www.exemple.com
da: http:// www.eksempel.dk
dsb, hsb: http://www.pśikład.de
et: http://www.eesti.ee
fi: http://www.esimerkki.com
ga-IE: http://www.sampla.com
gd: http://www.ball-sampaill.com
gl: http://www.exemplo.com
sq: http://www.shembull.com

Francesco

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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Leandro Regueiro
2016-05-25 10:43 GMT+02:00 Francesco Lodolo [:flod] <[hidden email]>:

> Il 25/05/16 10.25, Kim Ludvigsen ha scritto:
>>
>> Den 25-05-2016 kl. 08:52 skrev Francesco Lodolo [:flod]:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> The question was asked ages ago[1] in this mailing list, but it's still
>>> valid: should I translate "example.com" and "example.net" in error
>>> messages? The answer is "no".
>>
>>
>> Always, no matter what? See below.
>>
>>> It's not a matter of understanding what "example" means: example.com is
>>> not a standard domain, is a domain managed directly by IANA, it can't be
>>> registered or transferred, and it's especially reserved for
>>> documentation purposes.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example.com
>>
>>
>> Some countries have similar. In Denmark, "eksempel.dk" is owned by the
>> administrator of .dk, and it is reserved for documentation purposes the same
>> way as "example.com". Thus, we translate "example.com" to "eksempel.dk".
>>
> Hi Kim,
> That's a very good question. In this case I guess it's fine to keep
> eksempel.dk, the page it loads is also very similar to example.com.
> One cons is that it doesn't load in the https version, but I don't think
> it's an issue (again, no direct links as far as I can tell, only text).
>
> And I realized I checked central instead of aurora, so there are more
> translated domains:
> br: http://www.skouer.com
> ca: http://www.exemple.com
> da: http:// www.eksempel.dk
> dsb, hsb: http://www.pśikład.de
> et: http://www.eesti.ee
> fi: http://www.esimerkki.com
> ga-IE: http://www.sampla.com
> gd: http://www.ball-sampaill.com
> gl: http://www.exemplo.com

Hi,
Just contacted our registration authority for them to enable exemplo.gal

I am still not sure if it is acceptable to you to have a localized
domain if it is held by the domain registration authority with the
same purposes IANA keeps example.net so can you please clarify?


Bye

> sq: http://www.shembull.com
>
> Francesco
>
>
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Il 25/05/16 11.12, Leandro Regueiro ha scritto:
> Hi,
> Just contacted our registration authority for them to enable exemplo.gal
>
> I am still not sure if it is acceptable to you to have a localized
> domain if it is held by the domain registration authority with the
> same purposes IANA keeps example.net so can you please clarify?
If the page loaded is similar to example.com and it's registered and
hosted by the national registration authority, I believe it's fine.

But I'll try to find out if there's a person able to give an
authoritative answer about this.

Francesco
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Michal Stanke-2
In reply to this post by Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Hi.

We should definitely fix it. I will just wait for few days until a get a
response from out national domain registry, if there is any
example.com-like domain and also if we are permitted to use it.

Good catch, Francesco!

Michal

Dne 25.5.2016 v 08:52 Francesco Lodolo [:flod] napsal(a):

> Hi,
> The question was asked ages ago[1] in this mailing list, but it's
> still valid: should I translate "example.com" and "example.net" in
> error messages? The answer is "no".
>
> It's not a matter of understanding what "example" means: example.com
> is not a standard domain, is a domain managed directly by IANA, it
> can't be registered or transferred, and it's especially reserved for
> documentation purposes.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example.com
>
> In other words it's a domain guaranteed to be working and safe.
>
> You shouldn't be using local domains, even if you own them. And if you
> don't own them, you're using that domain name without explicit
> permission, and potentially introducing an issue: you have no idea
> what will happen to that domain, it might start publishing malware or
> inappropriate content at any moment (or it might be already). That's
> even worse when it comes to email addresses[2], you might be using a
> real address in your example.
>
> I don't think there are any active links in error pages, so users
> would have to manually copy and paste that text to get to the website,
> but it's still not OK.
>
> I did a spot check on one string[3], and I can see at least these
> locales using something different from example.com
> cs: http://www.server.cz
> es-CL: http://www.ejemplo.cl
> es-ES: http://www.ejemplo.com
> fr: http://www.exemple.com
> gl: http://www.exemplo.com
> hu: http://www.valami.hu
> lt: http://www.mozilla.lt
> nb-NO: http://www.eksempel.no
> nn-NO: http://www.døme.no
> pt-PT: http://www.exemplo.com
> sk: http://www.priklad.com
> sl: http://www.primer.si
>
> They are all registered domains, in some cases belonging to commercial
> activities, in most cases parked domains with ads.
>
> If you want to check your locale, just go to
> https://transvision.mozfr.org and search for "example." (without
> quotes), since there are also a couple of strings using example.net
>
> Francesco
>
> [1]
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.l10n/65heUauHziI/eY5F64Z8DDsJ
> [2]
> https://transvision.mozfr.org/string/?entity=mail/chrome/messenger/accountCreation.dtd:email.placeholder&repo=central
> [3]
> https://transvision.mozfr.org/string/?entity=browser/chrome/overrides/netError.dtd:malformedURI.longDesc&repo=central
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n

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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
In reply to this post by Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Il 25/05/16 11.17, Francesco Lodolo [:flod] ha scritto:

> Il 25/05/16 11.12, Leandro Regueiro ha scritto:
>> Hi,
>> Just contacted our registration authority for them to enable exemplo.gal
>>
>> I am still not sure if it is acceptable to you to have a localized
>> domain if it is held by the domain registration authority with the
>> same purposes IANA keeps example.net so can you please clarify?
> If the page loaded is similar to example.com and it's registered and
> hosted by the national registration authority, I believe it's fine.
>
> But I'll try to find out if there's a person able to give an
> authoritative answer about this.
I've received a confirmation on IRC from Gerv: it's fine to use a
different domain name as long as there is clear documentation that the
target domain is used and managed by the national registration authority
in exactly the same way as the standard examples.

eksempel.dk looks like a good candidate. I would also check, if
possible, that things like [hidden email] don't create issues.

Please take a look on Transvision and update your translations,
otherwise I'll start filing bugs in the next weeks.

Francesco
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Jeff Beatty
Thanks for checking everyone. For reference, this is something that could
(perhaps should) be added to your language's Mozilla style guide, to remind
yourselves of this best practice and to educate anyone new to your l10n
community on what to do when they find these URLs in Firefox strings. I'll
be adding it to the en-US Mozilla l10n style guide today.

Thanks,
Jeff

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 3:31 AM, Francesco Lodolo [:flod] <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Il 25/05/16 11.17, Francesco Lodolo [:flod] ha scritto:
>
>> Il 25/05/16 11.12, Leandro Regueiro ha scritto:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Just contacted our registration authority for them to enable exemplo.gal
>>>
>>> I am still not sure if it is acceptable to you to have a localized
>>> domain if it is held by the domain registration authority with the
>>> same purposes IANA keeps example.net so can you please clarify?
>>>
>> If the page loaded is similar to example.com and it's registered and
>> hosted by the national registration authority, I believe it's fine.
>>
>> But I'll try to find out if there's a person able to give an
>> authoritative answer about this.
>>
> I've received a confirmation on IRC from Gerv: it's fine to use a
> different domain name as long as there is clear documentation that the
> target domain is used and managed by the national registration authority in
> exactly the same way as the standard examples.
>
> eksempel.dk looks like a good candidate. I would also check, if possible,
> that things like [hidden email] don't create issues.
>
> Please take a look on Transvision and update your translations, otherwise
> I'll start filing bugs in the next weeks.
>
>
> Francesco
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>



--
Thanks,
Jeff
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Michael Wolf-2
In reply to this post by Kim Ludvigsen-2
Francesco Lodolo [:flod] schrieb:

> And I realized I checked central instead of aurora, so there are more
> translated domains:
> br: http://www.skouer.com
> ca: http://www.exemple.com
> da: http:// www.eksempel.dk
> dsb, hsb: http://www.pśikład.de
> et: http://www.eesti.ee
> fi: http://www.esimerkki.com
> ga-IE: http://www.sampla.com
> gd: http://www.ball-sampaill.com
> gl: http://www.exemplo.com
> sq: http://www.shembull.com
>

Upper Sorbian přikład.de and přikład.com and Lower Sorbian pśikład.de
and pśikład.com don't exist, neither priklad.de (without special
characters). Only priklad.com exists:

http://www.whois.com/whois/priklad.com

example.de exists as well - belongs to the German internet provider 1&1
Internet AG

Michael

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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Il 25/05/16 15.47, Michael Wolf ha scritto:
> Upper Sorbian přikład.de and přikład.com and Lower Sorbian pśikład.de
> and pśikład.com don't exist, neither priklad.de (without special
> characters). Only priklad.com exists:
> http://www.whois.com/whois/priklad.com
> example.de exists as well - belongs to the German internet provider
> 1&1 Internet AG
As explained, the only valid alternatives to example.com are similar
domains owned by national registration authorities and created for the
same purpose.

Unregistered domains, registered domains without active web pages,
parking pages are definitely not OK.

Francesco

P.S. I don't think example.de is registered to 1&1, simply hosted there,
but I'm not really familiar with German domains (don't see an admin-c
for example).
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Michael Wolf-2
In reply to this post by Michael Wolf-2
Francesco Lodolo [:flod] schrieb:

> As explained, the only valid alternatives to example.com are similar
> domains owned by national registration authorities and created for the
> same purpose.
>
> Unregistered domains, registered domains without active web pages,
> parking pages are definitely not OK.
>
> Francesco
>
> P.S. I don't think example.de is registered to 1&1, simply hosted there,
> but I'm not really familiar with German domains (don't see an admin-c
> for example).

OK, I'll change the domains back.


Michael
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Juraj Cigáň
Should be fixed in Slovak.

2016-05-25 16:35 GMT+02:00 Michael Wolf <[hidden email]>:

> Francesco Lodolo [:flod] schrieb:
>
>> As explained, the only valid alternatives to example.com are similar
>> domains owned by national registration authorities and created for the
>> same purpose.
>>
>> Unregistered domains, registered domains without active web pages,
>> parking pages are definitely not OK.
>>
>> Francesco
>>
>> P.S. I don't think example.de is registered to 1&1, simply hosted there,
>> but I'm not really familiar with German domains (don't see an admin-c
>> for example).
>>
>
> OK, I'll change the domains back.
>
>
>
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Michal Stanke-2
Fixed for Czech too. I will verify, if I haven't missed anything once all
the tools catch up.
https://hg.mozilla.org/releases/l10n/mozilla-aurora/cs/rev/0aa5be6b75e8

--
Michal

2016-05-25 23:05 GMT+02:00 Juraj Cigáň <[hidden email]>:

> Should be fixed in Slovak.
>
> 2016-05-25 16:35 GMT+02:00 Michael Wolf <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Francesco Lodolo [:flod] schrieb:
> >
> >> As explained, the only valid alternatives to example.com are similar
> >> domains owned by national registration authorities and created for the
> >> same purpose.
> >>
> >> Unregistered domains, registered domains without active web pages,
> >> parking pages are definitely not OK.
> >>
> >> Francesco
> >>
> >> P.S. I don't think example.de is registered to 1&1, simply hosted
> there,
> >> but I'm not really familiar with German domains (don't see an admin-c
> >> for example).
> >>
> >
> > OK, I'll change the domains back.
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael
> > _______________________________________________
> > dev-l10n mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Rimas Kudelis
In reply to this post by Michael Wolf-2
Fixed for Lithuanian.
Although I consider this just as much a drawback as an improvement.
Examples in a language one doesn't necessarily understand don't make
that much sense, and I seriously doubt that just mentioning some domain
name as an example might get us or anyone in any sort of legal trouble.

Anyway, here's what I found along the way: Calendar contains a string
where the example domain is myserver.com:

https://transvision.mozfr.org/?repo=aurora&search_type=entities&recherche=calendar/chrome/calendar/calendar.dtd:calendar.publish.example.url.description

Regards,
Rimas
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Sebastian Hengst-2
In reply to this post by Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Betreff: Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages
Von: Francesco Lodolo [:flod] <[hidden email]>
An: [hidden email]
Datum: 2016-05-25 16:18
> As explained, the only valid alternatives to example.com are similar
> domains owned by national registration authorities and created for the
> same purpose.
>
> Unregistered domains, registered domains without active web pages,
> parking pages are definitely not OK.

You can also use .example as top level domain to create partially
localized domains, see the second page of
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2606 , e.g.

<localized "example">.example

For German, we used that for the email placeholder in the Firefox OS
email app.

Sebastian
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Kim Ludvigsen-2
In reply to this post by Rimas Kudelis
Den 26-05-2016 kl. 21:24 skrev Rimas Kudelis:
> Fixed for Lithuanian.
> Although I consider this just as much a drawback as an improvement.
> Examples in a language one doesn't necessarily understand don't make
> that much sense, and I seriously doubt that just mentioning some domain
> name as an example might get us or anyone in any sort of legal trouble.

You will never get in *legal* trouble for linking to a page in this context.

But consider this: You use the available domain anotherexample.com in
the programs and in SUMO articles. One day a person finds a security
hole in Firefox, buys the domain and make an attack site in order to
take over the computers that are led to that site through your locale.

It doesn't even have to be used as an attack in order to do harm, they
could choose to make a porn site at that domain. Even if a domain is
owned by a friendly person, you know know what will happen tomorrow. The
person could die or decide to sell the domain to someone not so friendly.

If you want to have a local example site, then why not contact the
administrator for you local top domain and ask the if they will make a
site for that purpose? I have a feeling that most of them would be
willing, if you mention that the address will be used by Mozilla in
Firefox, Thunderbird, and in support articles.

--
Kind Regards
Kim Ludvigsen
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Re: Don't translate example.* domains in error messages

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
In reply to this post by Sebastian Hengst-2
Il 26/05/16 22.05, Sebastian Hengst ha scritto:
> You can also use .example as top level domain to create partially
> localized domains, see the second page of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2606 , e.g.
> <localized "example">.example
> For German, we used that for the email placeholder in the Firefox OS
> email app.
Sure it works, but I also have the feeling that we're missing a point
here (not referred to this reply specifically): "example.com" serves as
an example of a domain name.

"Hey, this address doesn't work. Check if you didn't write
*ww*.example.com instead of *www*.example.com".

Are we implying that the majority of Firefox users can't understand the
concept of "example.com" being a URL? Because they use plenty of .com
domain names, every day, that don't make any sense in their own language.

The only annoyance I see is when the spelling of "example" is so similar
to the word in your own language that it might look like a typo. But not
having references to potentially dangerous domains is far more important.

And, in my opinion, using "something.example" might be technically
acceptable, but potentially more confusing for users. Most of them are
familiar with .com and country TLDs, probably .net, but I doubt they get
".example" as part of a URL. And I say this from the point of view of
someone who had to explain for several years why his email address
didn't have a @yahoo.com or @hotmail.com (lately @gmail.com) at the end.

Francesco

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