Deprecated code

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Deprecated code

ks-2
Hi I need some help as I have not been able to find the answer to this
online.

I work for a company that paid a lot of money to another company to
give them a website that is filled with deprecated code, badly formed
code (it only works in IE) and improper use of CSS. Getting people to
understand that HTML is not just something that makes websites pretty
has been very difficult.

1. Does anyone have a good set of resources of articles that explain
the bottom line costs of being non-compliant from a recognizable source
(have a few, but mostly from sites that only people like us would
recognize)?

2.Deprecated code: I have noticed that in the new beta update to
Firefox that the table width set as a table attribute was not
rendering, so I am assuming some browsers are starting to force people
to use proper code techniques. Does anyone have any information on how
much longer and what kinds of deprecated code will be supported? And by
who? (I have read conflicting articles on IE 7 and have found nothing
on FF - I see articles on coding correctly, but not on deprecated
support.)

I want to create a standards compliant site that that does not
eliminate a great number of internet users, but need help showing the
higher ups why this is necessary  hoping there is some info on
deprecated code becoming obsolete, so as to show them that at this
juncture patching is not to our benefit (we are moving from one site to
the new site that has the issues - it is a good time for a rewrite)

Thank you -

Elizabeth Schacht

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Re: Deprecated code

Robert Blair-2
ks wrote:

>
> Hi I need some help as I have not been able to find the answer to this
> online.
>
> I work for a company that paid a lot of money to another company to
> give them a website that is filled with deprecated code, badly formed
> code (it only works in IE) and improper use of CSS. Getting people to
> understand that HTML is not just something that makes websites pretty
> has been very difficult.
>
> 1. Does anyone have a good set of resources of articles that explain
> the bottom line costs of being non-compliant from a recognizable source
> (have a few, but mostly from sites that only people like us would
> recognize)?

I am generally unknown.  However, my
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/internet/Webdevelopers.html> makes a
strong case for Web pages that comply with the W3C specifications.
I have some links scattered through that page to pages by others
who also make such a case.  

At the end of my
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/internet/web_design.html> (under "Other
Design Criteria" about 2/3 of the way down the page), I discuss
Jakob Nielsen's "Top Ten Web Design Mistakes" and have a link to
Nielsen's excellent site.  Below that, I list five other sites that
discuss compliance and accessibility.  
 
> 2.Deprecated code: I have noticed that in the new beta update to
> Firefox that the table width set as a table attribute was not
> rendering, so I am assuming some browsers are starting to force people
> to use proper code techniques. Does anyone have any information on how
> much longer and what kinds of deprecated code will be supported? And by
> who? (I have read conflicting articles on IE 7 and have found nothing
> on FF - I see articles on coding correctly, but not on deprecated
> support.)

The HTML 4.01 specification (Section 11.2.1) indicates "width" as a
TABLE attribution without calling it deprecated.  In the Index of
Attributes, "width" is indicated as deprecated for 5 of the 11
elements on which it can be applied.  TABLE is NOT one of those
elements, but TD and TH are.  Thus, if Firefox is not using the
"width" attribute for TABLE correctly, that is an error.  A bug
report should be filed immediately, before Firefox 1.5 reaches the
"release candidate" stage.  
 
> I want to create a standards compliant site that that does not
> eliminate a great number of internet users, but need help showing the
> higher ups why this is necessary  hoping there is some info on
> deprecated code becoming obsolete, so as to show them that at this
> juncture patching is not to our benefit (we are moving from one site to
> the new site that has the issues - it is a good time for a rewrite)

The legal question of whether a commercial Web site must be
accessible to the handicapped under the Americans with Disabilities
Act (ADA) has not yet been determined.  Alert your management that
the company might be creating an unacceptable risk of a lawsuit by
not having an accessible site.  Then inform your management that
accessibility generally requires compliance with the W3C
specifications.  

--

David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/>  

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards.  See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.
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Re: Deprecated code

RJack-10
In reply to this post by ks-2
ks wrote:

> I work for a company that paid a lot of money to another company to
> give them a website that is filled with deprecated code, badly formed
> code (it only works in IE) and improper use of CSS. Getting people to
> understand that HTML is not just something that makes websites pretty
> has been very difficult.

Sorry that I don't have really answer to your questions, but I think I have a
hint that your company can use next time you make a contract with a
webdeveloper, specify which browsers that must be supported and link the
payment to the level of support, this way you force the developer to follow
the w3c standard if you list MSIE, Mozilla/Firefox, Opera and Web Core as the
browsers that must be supported, if support for one of the browser failles,
then they can't expect payment.

I would suggest you see to ditch the webdeveloper you have at the moment as
fast as possible and get a new one that can follow the standards.


  //Aho
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Re: Deprecated code

ks-2
Everyone - Thank you for your advice i appreciate it & will check on
that bug report! And thanks for Neilsen I am not sure why I did not
remember to check it out ;).

As for the group that did the site, they did it before I got here and
they are very well known, so my company was unaware I think. Now I find
myself in a tough battle sometimes to explain and have it understood
the need for accessible design.

BTW one more question - can you tell me any good references for how
spiders are effected by this type of issue

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Re: Deprecated code

RJack-10
ks wrote:

> As for the group that did the site, they did it before I got here and
> they are very well known, so my company was unaware I think. Now I find
> myself in a tough battle sometimes to explain and have it understood
> the need for accessible design.

Thats bad luck and I know it's really difficult to get people to understand
that there are more than one web browser and that there are people using other
than the one included in one operating system that so many seems to use.

Showing some statistics could be good, of course you should find one that
shows higher shares for mozilla/firefox, but here is one that could be used in
worst case: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

This reminds me about a job I made as "weddeveloper", me and a friend had
managed to get a job to develop a website, he designed and I made the
serverside scripts. When we had the first version finished, we supported quite
many browsers and it worked on NetScape, Mozilla, Opera, Konqueror and MSIE
and tested under three operating systems (MS win, MacOSX, Linux).
The company didn't like the design and replaced my friend with their in house
webdeveloper and suddenly things worked only for MSIE under MS win only, made
my work difficult as I worked on a linux machine, had to fix her code all the
time to get things to work for me and she unfixed things when she got the page
back. The boss of the company went to the main customer to show the project of
course he wasn't that smart, so he had no own computer with him and he surfed
from the customers computer to the website, he tried to login, but no, it
didn't work, he even called the webdeveloper and asked if there was anything
wrong with the site and she tested and she could login in and everything
worked. She even guided him how to login, but still didn't work and they where
really confused why it didn't work, until I asked her to ask what browser and
version he used, the reply was NetScape4 (the customer had uninstalled MSIE
and installed NetScape instead of security reasons), this made them to change
their policy about browser support, when I had finished my part of the work, I
noticed that they was stupid enough to add a javascript that redirected people
to MS homepage to download MSIE if you surfed with another browser to their
main page, which made that it didn't work if you had javascript enabled with
other browsers. I guess stupidity like this can't be removed...

> BTW one more question - can you tell me any good references for how
> spiders are effected by this type of issue
>

What I have noticed about the spiders, there are generally only two HTML tags
they may be interested in and it's the title and the anchor tags, the rest of
the HTML is more or less parsed away as the plain text is more important for them.

But I don't know much about them, good point to start I guess would be at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_spider


  //Aho
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