Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites

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Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites

Aaron Leventhal-3
The Mozillazine forums also have this problem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w

Solutions are offered in the informative video.

- Aaron
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Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites

Aaron Leventhal-3
Actually, are there free audio captcha implementations available anywhere?

- Aaron

Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> The Mozillazine forums also have this problem:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
>
> Solutions are offered in the informative video.
>
> - Aaron
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ReCAPTCHA [was Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites]

Aaron Leventhal-3
Anyone tried using ReCAPTCHA? Any known problems with it?
http://recaptcha.net/whyrecaptcha.html

- Aaron

Aaron Leventhal wrote:

> Actually, are there free audio captcha implementations available anywhere?
>
> - Aaron
>
> Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>> The Mozillazine forums also have this problem:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
>>
>> Solutions are offered in the informative video.
>>
>> - Aaron
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Re: ReCAPTCHA [was Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites]

Aaron Leventhal-3
Well, it works. I tried it.

I had about 75% success rate understanding the audio stream well enough to enter
the read-out number correctly.

One thing I didn't like was that if you hit left/right arrow in the field the
audio stops.

- Aaron

Aaron Leventhal wrote:

> Anyone tried using ReCAPTCHA? Any known problems with it?
> http://recaptcha.net/whyrecaptcha.html
>
> - Aaron
>
> Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>> Actually, are there free audio captcha implementations available
>> anywhere?
>>
>> - Aaron
>>
>> Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>>> The Mozillazine forums also have this problem:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
>>>
>>> Solutions are offered in the informative video.
>>>
>>> - Aaron
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CAPTCHA implementors' thread on wai-xtech

Gregory J. Rosmaita
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
aloha, aaron!

there is an extensive thread on CAPTCHA and alternatives, which includes
the implementors of reCAPTCHA and other developers searching for a
CAPTCHA alternative on the wai-xtech list at w3c

you can peruse the archive by thread
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/thread.html

or use the following as jumping-off points:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0009.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0013.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0029.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0083.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0081.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0097.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0112.html

note that josh o connor (of CFIT) recorded individuals attempting
to fill out CAPTCHAs on a variety of platforms with a variety of
ATs which the developers involved in the conversation found
extremely useful -- perhaps he can provide more fodder for the
issue at YouTube (which is why i have carbon copied him on this)

gregory.
----------------------------------------------------------------
CONSERVATIVE, n.  A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
with others.         -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
----------------------------------------------------------------
             Gregory J. Rosmaita, [hidden email]
  Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Original Message -----------
From: Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:23:47 -0400
Subject: ReCAPTCHA [was Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social
networking sites]

> Anyone tried using ReCAPTCHA? Any known problems with it?
> http://recaptcha.net/whyrecaptcha.html
>
> - Aaron
>
> Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> > Actually, are there free audio captcha implementations available
anywhere?

> >
> > - Aaron
> >
> > Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> >> The Mozillazine forums also have this problem:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
> >>
> >> Solutions are offered in the informative video.
> >>
> >> - Aaron
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
------- End of Original Message -------

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Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites

Tim Keenan
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
There was a lot of talk about this at CSUN this year.  I was hoping for
a little more momentum, but maybe this will help.




Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> The Mozillazine forums also have this problem:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
>
> Solutions are offered in the informative video.
>
> - Aaron
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Re: CAPTCHA implementors' thread on wai-xtech

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
Gregory, how about the executive summary? What should Mozillazine use?

Not that I'm not interested, but we need to fix as many bugs as we can before
Firefox ships.

- Aaron



Gregory J. Rosmaita wrote:

> aloha, aaron!
>
> there is an extensive thread on CAPTCHA and alternatives, which includes
> the implementors of reCAPTCHA and other developers searching for a
> CAPTCHA alternative on the wai-xtech list at w3c
>
> you can peruse the archive by thread
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/thread.html
>
> or use the following as jumping-off points:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0009.html
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0013.html
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0029.html
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0083.html
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0081.html
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0097.html
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0112.html
>
> note that josh o connor (of CFIT) recorded individuals attempting
> to fill out CAPTCHAs on a variety of platforms with a variety of
> ATs which the developers involved in the conversation found
> extremely useful -- perhaps he can provide more fodder for the
> issue at YouTube (which is why i have carbon copied him on this)
>
> gregory.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> CONSERVATIVE, n.  A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
> as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
> with others.         -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>              Gregory J. Rosmaita, [hidden email]
>   Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------- Original Message -----------
> From: Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:23:47 -0400
> Subject: ReCAPTCHA [was Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social
> networking sites]
>
>> Anyone tried using ReCAPTCHA? Any known problems with it?
>> http://recaptcha.net/whyrecaptcha.html
>>
>> - Aaron
>>
>> Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>>> Actually, are there free audio captcha implementations available
> anywhere?
>>> - Aaron
>>>
>>> Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>>>> The Mozillazine forums also have this problem:
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
>>>>
>>>> Solutions are offered in the informative video.
>>>>
>>>> - Aaron
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
> ------- End of Original Message -------
>


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RE: ReCAPTCHA [was Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from socialnetworking sites]

Adrian Higginbotham
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
FaceBook use it because here in the UK they use CAPCHAs rather then the
cell phone authentication system they use in the states unfortunately
however I couldn't make it work for me.  I get no audio or any other
obvious response other than the status of the link changing when I
activate it.  Don't think its me as pop-up blocker is off, MS
implementation (among others) works ok for me...

One thing that would be useful is if the instructions gave an indication
of how many figures the system expects you to type in to the box - I
often find that there are one or two that I'm not sure if at part of the
background noise or the code.

Worryingly I've seen discussion about alternatives to text CAPTCHA that
look just as problematic such as spotting the 'odd one out' in a series
of pictures, although thankfuly haven't seen these in the wild yet.

I quite like the method on the Adobe Access Blog which simply tells you
in text which word to type in to the field. In that case the word is
always the same ("access") but guess it would be difficult to make this
changeable.  As a textual instruction it isn't really machine bre3akable
but I guess once broken by a human it would be easy to set a machine to
take advantage of such a system if it were used on a larger scale.

I haven't yet seen a site I don't think that uses logic tests which were
discussed a lot when CAPTCHAs first became prominent - things like "how
many legs has a dog", "what colour is an orange" etc.



Adrian Higginbotham


Accessibility content manager

British Educational Communications and Technology Agency - BECTA
Tel: Direct dial 024 7679 7333 - Becta switchboard 02476-416994.

Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://www.becta.org.uk/
BECTA, Millburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry, CV4 7JJ


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aaron
Leventhal
Sent: 22 August 2007 17:24
To: [hidden email]
Subject: ReCAPTCHA [was Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from
socialnetworking sites]

Anyone tried using ReCAPTCHA? Any known problems with it?
http://recaptcha.net/whyrecaptcha.html

- Aaron

Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> Actually, are there free audio captcha implementations available
anywhere?

>
> - Aaron
>
> Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>> The Mozillazine forums also have this problem:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
>>
>> Solutions are offered in the informative video.
>>
>> - Aaron
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility


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Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites

Steve Lee-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
On 22/08/07, Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]> wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
> Solutions are offered in the informative video.

I'm wondering why have the background gabbling in the audio captcha?
Presumably this is to give a direct audio equivalent of the visual captcha?

However captchas are used to test it is a human user and to stop
machine data entry. How likely is it that speech recognition will in
operation on the users PC and they have a microphone that can
successfully pick up the speech from the speakers without loads of
feedback? AFAIK there is no direct digital loopback bewteen TTS and
speech recognition.

Or have I missed something?

Steve Lee
www.fullmeasure.co.uk
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RE: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites

Adrian Higginbotham
I guess it's to prevent automated systems doing a speach to text
transcription and using this to break in to the page, seems unlikely at
this stage but maybe if audio CAPTCHAs became more generic some one
might try I guess.



Adrian Higginbotham


Accessibility content manager

British Educational Communications and Technology Agency - BECTA
Tel: Direct dial 024 7679 7333 - Becta switchboard 02476-416994.

Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://www.becta.org.uk/
BECTA, Millburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry, CV4 7JJ


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve
Lee
Sent: 23 August 2007 09:28
To: Aaron Leventhal
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking
sites

On 22/08/07, Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]> wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
> Solutions are offered in the informative video.

I'm wondering why have the background gabbling in the audio captcha?
Presumably this is to give a direct audio equivalent of the visual
captcha?

However captchas are used to test it is a human user and to stop machine
data entry. How likely is it that speech recognition will in operation
on the users PC and they have a microphone that can successfully pick up
the speech from the speakers without loads of feedback? AFAIK there is
no direct digital loopback bewteen TTS and speech recognition.

Or have I missed something?

Steve Lee
www.fullmeasure.co.uk
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility


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RE: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites

Kaja, Kiran
In reply to this post by Steve Lee-3
I guess it is theoritically possible to programatically  recognize the
voice using APIs in Voice Recognition applications. The distortion is to
make that a little difficult.


Regards,
Kiran.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve
Lee
Sent: Thursday, 23 August 2007 1:58 PM
To: Aaron Leventhal
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking
sites

On 22/08/07, Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]> wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
> Solutions are offered in the informative video.

I'm wondering why have the background gabbling in the audio captcha?
Presumably this is to give a direct audio equivalent of the visual
captcha?

However captchas are used to test it is a human user and to stop
machine data entry. How likely is it that speech recognition will in
operation on the users PC and they have a microphone that can
successfully pick up the speech from the speakers without loads of
feedback? AFAIK there is no direct digital loopback bewteen TTS and
speech recognition.

Or have I missed something?

Steve Lee
www.fullmeasure.co.uk
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites

David Bolter
In reply to this post by Steve Lee-3
Steve Lee wrote:

> On 22/08/07, Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
>> Solutions are offered in the informative video.
>>    
>
> I'm wondering why have the background gabbling in the audio captcha?
> Presumably this is to give a direct audio equivalent of the visual captcha?
>
> However captchas are used to test it is a human user and to stop
> machine data entry. How likely is it that speech recognition will in
> operation on the users PC and they have a microphone that can
> successfully pick up the speech from the speakers without loads of
> feedback? AFAIK there is no direct digital loopback bewteen TTS and
> speech recognition.
>
> Or have I missed something?
>  

I'm guessing you haven't missed anything. I imagine the gabbling is
indeed to protect against machine based speech recognition. If it isn't
a realistic worry now, no doubt it could easily be a worry in the near
future.  I think there is still lots of money in spam unfortunately.

cheers,
D
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Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites

Tom Brunet
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
The user is usually presented with an audio file that the browser
downloads, so the robot just has to download the file and run it through
a recognition program - no external wiring required.  Even in the worst
case, I can run a cable from my headphone jack to my mic jack.  Since
the microphone isn't played on the speakers, there's no feedback.

As far as a reco system, the audio generated by TTS is fairly regular
and we're dealing with a small set of items (26).  At most, this is
probably on the order of an undergraduate AI project.

If I were going to spend my resources defeating a captcha, and I had to
choose between a garbled image or a clean TTS feed - I'd definitely
attack the clean TTS feed.

Tom

 > However captchas are used to test it is a human user and to stop
 > machine data entry. How likely is it that speech recognition will in
 > operation on the users PC and they have a microphone that can
 > successfully pick up the speech from the speakers without loads of
 > feedback? AFAIK there is no direct digital loopback bewteen TTS and
 > speech recognition.
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Re: CAPTCHA implementors' thread on wai-xtech

Gregory J. Rosmaita
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
aaron --

i think the best feedback would from the implementors who participated
the impact of user testing upon their approach to the problem:

Ben Maurer -- reCAPTCHA point-person (Carnigie Mellon University)
Colin McMillen -- reCAPTCHA engineer
Chris Blouch -- AOL implementor
Don Evans - AOL

Joshue O Connor (CFIT) -- provided user testing footage and feedback

and i'd talk to norman walsh, as his solution to the bot versus person
question is based on simple computations, rather than pictures (yes,
there are definite problems with "what comprises a 'simple' computation?:
what if implementors substituted pictures of numbers and operands to
provide a false sense of double-security)

as for an executive summary one really must follow the threads on
wai-xtech to gain a complete picture of the CAPTCHA and reCAPTCHA
discussions and implementations, but here are the "highlights"

gregory.

the initial major problems outlined with reCAPTCHA and
reCAPTCHA's approach to rectify them are both in a single post:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0013.html

reCAPTCHA's code changes and further issues:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0047.html

problems with focus issues are addressed in:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0045.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0082.html

developers discussion of focus issues:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0046.html

CAPTCHA Accessibility: 1 issue or 2?
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0066.html

Joshue O Connor's test results (actual footage available on demand)
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0100.html
----------------------------------------------------------------
CONSERVATIVE, n.  A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
with others.         -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
----------------------------------------------------------------
             Gregory J. Rosmaita, [hidden email]
  Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Original Message -----------
From: Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:27:55 -0400
Subject: Re: CAPTCHA implementors' thread on wai-xtech

> Gregory, how about the executive summary? What should
> Mozillazine use?
>
> Not that I'm not interested, but we need to fix as many bugs as
> we can before Firefox ships.
>
> - Aaron
>
> Gregory J. Rosmaita wrote:
> > aloha, aaron!
> >
> > there is an extensive thread on CAPTCHA and alternatives, which
includes

> > the implementors of reCAPTCHA and other developers searching for a
> > CAPTCHA alternative on the wai-xtech list at w3c
> >
> > you can peruse the archive by thread
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/thread.html
> >
> > or use the following as jumping-off points:
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0009.html
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0013.html
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0029.html
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0083.html
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0081.html
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0097.html
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jul/0112.html
> >
> > note that josh o connor (of CFIT) recorded individuals attempting
> > to fill out CAPTCHAs on a variety of platforms with a variety of
> > ATs which the developers involved in the conversation found
> > extremely useful -- perhaps he can provide more fodder for the
> > issue at YouTube (which is why i have carbon copied him on this)
> >
> > gregory.
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > CONSERVATIVE, n.  A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
> > as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
> > with others.         -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >              Gregory J. Rosmaita, [hidden email]
> >   Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > ---------- Original Message -----------
> > From: Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Sent: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:23:47 -0400
> > Subject: ReCAPTCHA [was Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from
social

> > networking sites]
> >
> >> Anyone tried using ReCAPTCHA? Any known problems with it?
> >> http://recaptcha.net/whyrecaptcha.html
> >>
> >> - Aaron
> >>
> >> Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> >>> Actually, are there free audio captcha implementations available
> > anywhere?
> >>> - Aaron
> >>>
> >>> Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> >>>> The Mozillazine forums also have this problem:
> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jrgMlufa7w
> >>>>
> >>>> Solutions are offered in the informative video.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Aaron
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> dev-accessibility mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
> > ------- End of Original Message -------
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
------- End of Original Message -------

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Re: CAPTCHA implementors' thread on wai-xtech

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
Gregory,

I guess by executive summary, I meant something really short. What's the best
thing available, from the consumer's point of view, right now? I'd be interested
in ongoing conversation among the developers if I had time, but I don't.

I'm looking for a quick description of the top 3 alternatives for accessible
captchas available for free right now, that Mozillazine can use, and what their
pros/cons are if any.

Just tell us what to use. That's all most developers want to know.

- Aaron
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Re: CAPTCHA implementors' thread on wai-xtech

Jonathan Chetwynd
Aaron,

I find your response really most unhelpful.
The fact remains that the reason you give is the very one that  
provides your employment.
Namely that developers rarely get involved with user testing.
Hence they develop code and interfaces that are at best inaccessible  
and unusable except by developers.
hence a need for usability and accessibility experts.

I do also accept that your heart is "in the right place"

you might consider listening to or reading the transcript of my  
recent talk
"Putting the User at the Heart of the W3C Process"

a talk given at the CETIS Accessibility SIG Meeting 24th July 2007
http://wiki.cetis.ac.uk/Putting_the_User_at_the_Heart_of_the_W3C_Process

but perhaps you may be too busy....

~:"

cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd
Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet



On 23 Aug 2007, at 21:57, Aaron Leventhal wrote:

Gregory,

I guess by executive summary, I meant something really short. What's  
the best
thing available, from the consumer's point of view, right now? I'd be  
interested
in ongoing conversation among the developers if I had time, but I don't.

I'm looking for a quick description of the top 3 alternatives for  
accessible
captchas available for free right now, that Mozillazine can use, and  
what their
pros/cons are if any.

Just tell us what to use. That's all most developers want to know.

- Aaron
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Re: Captchas shutting out blind users from social networking sites

Steve Lee-3
In reply to this post by Tom Brunet
On 23/08/07, Tom Brunet <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The user is usually presented with an audio file that the browser
> downloads, so the robot just has to download the file and run it through
> a recognition program - no external wiring required.  Even in the worst
> case, I can run a cable from my headphone jack to my mic jack.  Since
> the microphone isn't played on the speakers, there's no feedback.

<fx='slaps forehead'/>

Thanks Tom, and others for helping to clarify my thinking.

Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
www.fullmeasure.co.uk
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Re: CAPTCHA implementors' thread on wai-xtech

Steve Lee-3
In reply to this post by Jonathan Chetwynd
On 23/08/07, Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I guess by executive summary, I meant something really short. What's the best
> thing available, from the consumer's point of view, right now? I'd be interested
> in ongoing conversation among the developers if I had time, but I don't.

On 24/08/07, "~:'' ありがとうございました。" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I find your response really most unhelpful.

Actually I'd be interested in such a summary in order to gain an
overview of the the issues and themes of the discussion, even if not
focusing on that specific area. If the topic is in my 'cross hairs'
then I'll want more that the '10000 Foot View' and can dig in to the
detail (slightly mix metaphors).

I doubt most user's want to know the minutiae of programing or
engineering tradeoffs but might welcome a summary.

In fact I'd be interested in executive summaries of all the main
accessibility issues facing users of FireFox as well as the current
efforts and solutions. Could we collect something on the wiki? Or
perhaps on Accessfirefox as that is user focussed?

--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
www.oatsoft.org
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Re: CAPTCHA implementors' thread on wai-xtech

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Jonathan Chetwynd
Well, we have 300 bugs to fix in 10 weeks.

We ask users all the time what works best for them. I'm not a screen
reader user myself -- so we basically would prefer to get told by AFB or
whoever, please just use this. And if being a11y folks, we already think
that way, so do other developers. Nothing wrong with splitting up the
work. But then again, I have the feeling that a lot people don't really
realize how much work goes into making a browser accessible.

- Aaron

~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote:

> Aaron,
>
> I find your response really most unhelpful.
> The fact remains that the reason you give is the very one that
> provides your employment.
> Namely that developers rarely get involved with user testing.
> Hence they develop code and interfaces that are at best inaccessible
> and unusable except by developers.
> hence a need for usability and accessibility experts.
>
> I do also accept that your heart is "in the right place"
>
> you might consider listening to or reading the transcript of my recent
> talk
> "Putting the User at the Heart of the W3C Process"
>
> a talk given at the CETIS Accessibility SIG Meeting 24th July 2007
> http://wiki.cetis.ac.uk/Putting_the_User_at_the_Heart_of_the_W3C_Process
>
> but perhaps you may be too busy....
>
> ~:"
>
> cheers
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
> Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet
>
>
>
> On 23 Aug 2007, at 21:57, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>
> Gregory,
>
> I guess by executive summary, I meant something really short. What's
> the best
> thing available, from the consumer's point of view, right now? I'd be
> interested
> in ongoing conversation among the developers if I had time, but I don't.
>
> I'm looking for a quick description of the top 3 alternatives for
> accessible
> captchas available for free right now, that Mozillazine can use, and
> what their
> pros/cons are if any.
>
> Just tell us what to use. That's all most developers want to know.
>
> - Aaron
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
>
>
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Re: CAPTCHA implementors' thread on wai-xtech

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
In terms of being helpful with captchas, the only time I can commit on the
catpcha issue is to pass on to developers what they need.

Right now we still have too many bugs to fix!

Hope you understand.

- Aaron




~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote:

> Aaron,
>
> I find your response really most unhelpful.
> The fact remains that the reason you give is the very one that provides
> your employment.
> Namely that developers rarely get involved with user testing.
> Hence they develop code and interfaces that are at best inaccessible and
> unusable except by developers.
> hence a need for usability and accessibility experts.
>
> I do also accept that your heart is "in the right place"
>
> you might consider listening to or reading the transcript of my recent talk
> "Putting the User at the Heart of the W3C Process"
>
> a talk given at the CETIS Accessibility SIG Meeting 24th July 2007
> http://wiki.cetis.ac.uk/Putting_the_User_at_the_Heart_of_the_W3C_Process
>
> but perhaps you may be too busy....
>
> ~:"
>
> cheers
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
> Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet
>
>
>
> On 23 Aug 2007, at 21:57, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>
> Gregory,
>
> I guess by executive summary, I meant something really short. What's the
> best
> thing available, from the consumer's point of view, right now? I'd be
> interested
> in ongoing conversation among the developers if I had time, but I don't.
>
> I'm looking for a quick description of the top 3 alternatives for
> accessible
> captchas available for free right now, that Mozillazine can use, and
> what their
> pros/cons are if any.
>
> Just tell us what to use. That's all most developers want to know.
>
> - Aaron
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
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