Can always tell when a new version has been released

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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

F1Com
On 11/22/2012 9:15 AM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard

> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
> with on 11/22/2012 7:43 AM:
>> On 11/21/2012 9:03 AM On a whim, jetjock pounded out on the keyboard
>>
>>> responder wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Because users have addons being disabled, toolbars disappear, sites
>>>>> don't open any longer, etc, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Silent" updates?  Hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Not only that and I know the loyalist will quickly respond, but I duly
>>>> upgraded to 17 when my reminder popped up.
>>>>
>>>> Besides the inane changes which to me have no logical meaning, the
>>>> single biggest problem I am experiencing is that it slowed down the
>>>> access and loading to an absolute crawl.
>>>> Yes, I have plenty of resources, etc...don't need to go there.
>>>>
>>>> So, I opened the crappy IE 8 and bingo...everything sped along as it
>>>> used to.
>>>>
>>>> Then downgraded to 16.0.2 and within 60 seconds was back to normal.
>>>> Zippy, speedy access and loading.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have the talent to be a developer and I suppose maybe because
>>>> my ego isn't nearly large enough to want to push my thoughts
>>>> unilaterally onto everyone else.
>>>>
>>>> Why, Why, Why???
>>> And yet, there are still folks in this group who just can't understand
>>> why people like me will not jump on the auto-update bandwagon!
>>> We get accused of endangering the entire Internet by not having the
>>> latest and greatest "security" upgrades! Me, I'll stick with what I
>>> know works. That said, I _*am*_ extremely greatfull to all you folks
>>> that do the beta checking of the new releases so when I do update,
>>> I know that version works.  :-)
>> I get users all the time demanding to have Firefox stop updating.
>> Because of how Firefox updates so poorly, users don't want to update at
>> all.  I can't blame them.
>>
> Why not recommend the ESR release for them?
>

I have, but usually the response is negative, and ESR still updates,
regardless.





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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

F1Com
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 11/22/2012 9:33 AM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard

> On 11/22/2012 11:15 AM, Sailfish wrote:
>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>> with on 11/22/2012 7:43 AM:
>>> On 11/21/2012 9:03 AM On a whim, jetjock pounded out on the keyboard
>>>
>>>> responder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Because users have addons being disabled, toolbars disappear, sites
>>>>>> don't open any longer, etc, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Silent" updates?  Hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Not only that and I know the loyalist will quickly respond, but I duly
>>>>> upgraded to 17 when my reminder popped up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Besides the inane changes which to me have no logical meaning, the
>>>>> single biggest problem I am experiencing is that it slowed down the
>>>>> access and loading to an absolute crawl.
>>>>> Yes, I have plenty of resources, etc...don't need to go there.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I opened the crappy IE 8 and bingo...everything sped along as it
>>>>> used to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then downgraded to 16.0.2 and within 60 seconds was back to normal.
>>>>> Zippy, speedy access and loading.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have the talent to be a developer and I suppose maybe because
>>>>> my ego isn't nearly large enough to want to push my thoughts
>>>>> unilaterally onto everyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why, Why, Why???
>>>> And yet, there are still folks in this group who just can't understand
>>>> why people like me will not jump on the auto-update bandwagon!
>>>> We get accused of endangering the entire Internet by not having the
>>>> latest and greatest "security" upgrades! Me, I'll stick with what I
>>>> know works. That said, I _*am*_ extremely greatfull to all you folks
>>>> that do the beta checking of the new releases so when I do update,
>>>> I know that version works.  :-)
>>> I get users all the time demanding to have Firefox stop updating.
>>> Because of how Firefox updates so poorly, users don't want to update
>>> at all.  I can't blame them.
>>>
>> Why not recommend the ESR release for them?
>>
> What?  An lose his talking point?  Nawww.
>

No Ron.  It's pointless, that's why.  ESR updates also.  The resolve is
to turn off auto-update.




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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

F1Com
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 11/22/2012 9:21 AM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard

> On 11/22/2012 9:50 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

>> I updated over two dozen workstations on one network, and over half of
>> the machines required me to do something that shouldn't be required of
>> an average user.  One kept stating "Apply update" in the About dialog,
>> even though it stated the version was 17.  Another required 3 tries to
>> update even though I launched it with Administrator rights each time.
>>
>> And no, the Maintenance service doesn't seem to work on Limited user
>> accounts, regardless of the claim.  And yet Chrome updates and no one
>> ever notices.
>>
>> The only reason I update this way on network machines is to monitor how
>> an "average" machine reacts to updates.  Personally, it's faster for me
>> to download the complete file and install it rather than screwing around
>> with the poor update mechanism.  And that resolves the frequent firewall
>> not registering the new file issue also.
>>
>>
>>
> So, you are blaming Firefox for the deficiency of your firewall?
> Amazing.  If you would rather use Chrome, by all means do so.  If you

Amazing?  Did I "blame" anything?  I only stated that from reports from
user experiences, and telling them to download the complete file is
easier than explaining how to register the file in their firewall.

> like IE better, USE it.  If you want to use Firefox, then use that.  I
> have had VERY few problems with updates.  Some of the more useful
> (complex) addons have to be updated to work with new versions.  IF you
> don't like that, use some other addon, or don't use addons, or go to a
> browser that doesn't allow that kind of addon.  This kind of carping
> just doesn't make sense to me.
>

I don't use hardly any addons personally, as Firefox is mainly used for
support since it doesn't paste images into Gmail as explained in another
thread.


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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

Sailfish-2
In reply to this post by F1Com
My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
with on 11/22/2012 6:53 PM:

> On 11/22/2012 9:15 AM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>> with on 11/22/2012 7:43 AM:
>>> On 11/21/2012 9:03 AM On a whim, jetjock pounded out on the keyboard
>>>
>>>> responder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Because users have addons being disabled, toolbars disappear, sites
>>>>>> don't open any longer, etc, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Silent" updates?  Hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Not only that and I know the loyalist will quickly respond, but I duly
>>>>> upgraded to 17 when my reminder popped up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Besides the inane changes which to me have no logical meaning, the
>>>>> single biggest problem I am experiencing is that it slowed down the
>>>>> access and loading to an absolute crawl.
>>>>> Yes, I have plenty of resources, etc...don't need to go there.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I opened the crappy IE 8 and bingo...everything sped along as it
>>>>> used to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then downgraded to 16.0.2 and within 60 seconds was back to normal.
>>>>> Zippy, speedy access and loading.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have the talent to be a developer and I suppose maybe because
>>>>> my ego isn't nearly large enough to want to push my thoughts
>>>>> unilaterally onto everyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why, Why, Why???
>>>> And yet, there are still folks in this group who just can't understand
>>>> why people like me will not jump on the auto-update bandwagon!
>>>> We get accused of endangering the entire Internet by not having the
>>>> latest and greatest "security" upgrades! Me, I'll stick with what I
>>>> know works. That said, I _*am*_ extremely greatfull to all you folks
>>>> that do the beta checking of the new releases so when I do update,
>>>> I know that version works.  :-)
>>> I get users all the time demanding to have Firefox stop updating.
>>> Because of how Firefox updates so poorly, users don't want to update at
>>> all.  I can't blame them.
>>>
>> Why not recommend the ESR release for them?
>
> I have, but usually the response is negative, and ESR still updates,
> regardless.
>
I thought it was only security patches, right?

--
Sailfish - Netscape Champion
Mozilla Contributor Member - www.mozilla.org/credits/
Netscape/Mozilla Tips: http://www.ufaq.org/ , http://ilias.ca/
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://www.projectit.com/
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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by F1Com
On 11/22/2012 8:45 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 11/22/2012 7:57 AM On a whim, WaltS pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> On 11/22/2012 10:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> On 11/21/2012 9:03 AM On a whim, jetjock pounded out on the keyboard
>>>
>>>> responder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Because users have addons being disabled, toolbars disappear, sites
>>>>>> don't open any longer, etc, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Silent" updates?  Hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Not only that and I know the loyalist will quickly respond, but I duly
>>>>> upgraded to 17 when my reminder popped up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Besides the inane changes which to me have no logical meaning, the
>>>>> single biggest problem I am experiencing is that it slowed down the
>>>>> access and loading to an absolute crawl.
>>>>> Yes, I have plenty of resources, etc...don't need to go there.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I opened the crappy IE 8 and bingo...everything sped along as it
>>>>> used to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then downgraded to 16.0.2 and within 60 seconds was back to normal.
>>>>> Zippy, speedy access and loading.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have the talent to be a developer and I suppose maybe because
>>>>> my ego isn't nearly large enough to want to push my thoughts
>>>>> unilaterally onto everyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why, Why, Why???
>>>> And yet, there are still folks in this group who just can't understand
>>>> why people like me will not jump on the auto-update bandwagon!
>>>> We get accused of endangering the entire Internet by not having the
>>>> latest and greatest "security" upgrades! Me, I'll stick with what I
>>>> know works. That said, I _*am*_ extremely greatfull to all you folks
>>>> that do the beta checking of the new releases so when I do update,
>>>> I know that version works.  :-)
>>>>
>>> I get users all the time demanding to have Firefox stop updating.
>>> Because of how Firefox updates so poorly, users don't want to update at
>>> all.  I can't blame them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Is it how Firefox updates so poorly, or extensions, and themes don't
>> work because during the 6 week Aurora cycle, and 6 week Beta cycle they
>> don't test them, and update them to work.
>>
>
> Firefox.  I've mentioned several times what users get with FF updates.
> Nothing "silent" about them.  In fact, they seem to make a big deal
> about an update occurring, unlike any other browser.
>
>
>
Seems to me that other than the default theme, all the themes and
extensions are developed by OTHER than Mozilla.  So, how can you blame
Mozilla for that?  But you have a point about 'silent updating'.
Firefox is far from silent about updating, so far.

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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by F1Com
On 11/22/2012 8:51 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 11/22/2012 10:22 AM On a whim, WaltS pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> On 11/22/2012 01:10 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>>
>> I think that is easier said than done, with as many as there are
>> available.
>>
>> Does Jorge have the time, or a crew?
>
> I have users all the time write in stating the "Featured" themes aren't
> compatible with the latest releases, in fact most state FF 3 or less!. I
> sent an email to Jorge and he said it was because of a "bug".
>
> A lot of good that does users.
>
>
>
>
Looks like they would, at least, check the version number before
recommending an extension or theme as 'featured'.  Or not.

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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by F1Com
On 11/22/2012 8:53 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 11/22/2012 9:15 AM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>> with on 11/22/2012 7:43 AM:
>>> On 11/21/2012 9:03 AM On a whim, jetjock pounded out on the keyboard
>>>
>>>> responder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Because users have addons being disabled, toolbars disappear, sites
>>>>>> don't open any longer, etc, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Silent" updates?  Hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Not only that and I know the loyalist will quickly respond, but I duly
>>>>> upgraded to 17 when my reminder popped up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Besides the inane changes which to me have no logical meaning, the
>>>>> single biggest problem I am experiencing is that it slowed down the
>>>>> access and loading to an absolute crawl.
>>>>> Yes, I have plenty of resources, etc...don't need to go there.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I opened the crappy IE 8 and bingo...everything sped along as it
>>>>> used to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then downgraded to 16.0.2 and within 60 seconds was back to normal.
>>>>> Zippy, speedy access and loading.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have the talent to be a developer and I suppose maybe because
>>>>> my ego isn't nearly large enough to want to push my thoughts
>>>>> unilaterally onto everyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why, Why, Why???
>>>> And yet, there are still folks in this group who just can't understand
>>>> why people like me will not jump on the auto-update bandwagon!
>>>> We get accused of endangering the entire Internet by not having the
>>>> latest and greatest "security" upgrades! Me, I'll stick with what I
>>>> know works. That said, I _*am*_ extremely greatfull to all you folks
>>>> that do the beta checking of the new releases so when I do update,
>>>> I know that version works.  :-)
>>> I get users all the time demanding to have Firefox stop updating.
>>> Because of how Firefox updates so poorly, users don't want to update at
>>> all.  I can't blame them.
>>>
>> Why not recommend the ESR release for them?
>>
>
> I have, but usually the response is negative, and ESR still updates,
> regardless.
>
>
>
>
>
In other words, they WANT something to gripe about, and WANT to be
exposed to hacking?  That makes NO sense.
OF course in the military, it is often pointed out that people aren't
happy unless they have something to gripe about.

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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by F1Com
On 11/22/2012 8:54 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 11/22/2012 9:33 AM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> On 11/22/2012 11:15 AM, Sailfish wrote:
>>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>>> with on 11/22/2012 7:43 AM:
>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:03 AM On a whim, jetjock pounded out on the keyboard
>>>>
>>>>> responder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because users have addons being disabled, toolbars disappear, sites
>>>>>>> don't open any longer, etc, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Silent" updates?  Hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not only that and I know the loyalist will quickly respond, but I
>>>>>> duly
>>>>>> upgraded to 17 when my reminder popped up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Besides the inane changes which to me have no logical meaning, the
>>>>>> single biggest problem I am experiencing is that it slowed down the
>>>>>> access and loading to an absolute crawl.
>>>>>> Yes, I have plenty of resources, etc...don't need to go there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I opened the crappy IE 8 and bingo...everything sped along as it
>>>>>> used to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then downgraded to 16.0.2 and within 60 seconds was back to normal.
>>>>>> Zippy, speedy access and loading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have the talent to be a developer and I suppose maybe because
>>>>>> my ego isn't nearly large enough to want to push my thoughts
>>>>>> unilaterally onto everyone else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why, Why, Why???
>>>>> And yet, there are still folks in this group who just can't understand
>>>>> why people like me will not jump on the auto-update bandwagon!
>>>>> We get accused of endangering the entire Internet by not having the
>>>>> latest and greatest "security" upgrades! Me, I'll stick with what I
>>>>> know works. That said, I _*am*_ extremely greatfull to all you folks
>>>>> that do the beta checking of the new releases so when I do update,
>>>>> I know that version works.  :-)
>>>> I get users all the time demanding to have Firefox stop updating.
>>>> Because of how Firefox updates so poorly, users don't want to update
>>>> at all.  I can't blame them.
>>>>
>>> Why not recommend the ESR release for them?
>>>
>> What?  An lose his talking point?  Nawww.
>>
>
> No Ron.  It's pointless, that's why.  ESR updates also.  The resolve is
> to turn off auto-update.
>
>
>
>

No, that is self-destructive, and quite unnecessary.

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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by F1Com
On 11/22/2012 9:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 11/22/2012 9:21 AM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> On 11/22/2012 9:50 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>>> I updated over two dozen workstations on one network, and over half of
>>> the machines required me to do something that shouldn't be required of
>>> an average user.  One kept stating "Apply update" in the About dialog,
>>> even though it stated the version was 17.  Another required 3 tries to
>>> update even though I launched it with Administrator rights each time.
>>>
>>> And no, the Maintenance service doesn't seem to work on Limited user
>>> accounts, regardless of the claim.  And yet Chrome updates and no one
>>> ever notices.
>>>
>>> The only reason I update this way on network machines is to monitor how
>>> an "average" machine reacts to updates.  Personally, it's faster for me
>>> to download the complete file and install it rather than screwing around
>>> with the poor update mechanism.  And that resolves the frequent firewall
>>> not registering the new file issue also.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> So, you are blaming Firefox for the deficiency of your firewall?
>> Amazing.  If you would rather use Chrome, by all means do so.  If you
>
> Amazing?  Did I "blame" anything?  I only stated that from reports from
> user experiences, and telling them to download the complete file is
> easier than explaining how to register the file in their firewall.
>
>> like IE better, USE it.  If you want to use Firefox, then use that.  I
>> have had VERY few problems with updates.  Some of the more useful
>> (complex) addons have to be updated to work with new versions.  IF you
>> don't like that, use some other addon, or don't use addons, or go to a
>> browser that doesn't allow that kind of addon.  This kind of carping
>> just doesn't make sense to me.
>>
>
> I don't use hardly any addons personally, as Firefox is mainly used for
> support since it doesn't paste images into Gmail as explained in another
> thread.
>
>
Apparently YOURS doesn't.  Mine does.  Probably some subtle parameter
setting somewhere.  I have, at last count, 22 installed, and active,
extensions in Firefox.  Except for TACO with Abine (anti-tracking
extension), they all seem to keep up with beta versions quite nicely.  I
sometimes download a complete file, and sometimes update.  No trouble
with either in a very long time.

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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Sailfish-2
On 11/22/2012 9:07 PM, Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
> with on 11/22/2012 6:53 PM:
>> On 11/22/2012 9:15 AM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard
>>
>>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>>> with on 11/22/2012 7:43 AM:
>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:03 AM On a whim, jetjock pounded out on the keyboard
>>>>
>>>>> responder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because users have addons being disabled, toolbars disappear, sites
>>>>>>> don't open any longer, etc, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Silent" updates?  Hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not only that and I know the loyalist will quickly respond, but I
>>>>>> duly
>>>>>> upgraded to 17 when my reminder popped up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Besides the inane changes which to me have no logical meaning, the
>>>>>> single biggest problem I am experiencing is that it slowed down the
>>>>>> access and loading to an absolute crawl.
>>>>>> Yes, I have plenty of resources, etc...don't need to go there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I opened the crappy IE 8 and bingo...everything sped along as it
>>>>>> used to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then downgraded to 16.0.2 and within 60 seconds was back to normal.
>>>>>> Zippy, speedy access and loading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have the talent to be a developer and I suppose maybe because
>>>>>> my ego isn't nearly large enough to want to push my thoughts
>>>>>> unilaterally onto everyone else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why, Why, Why???
>>>>> And yet, there are still folks in this group who just can't understand
>>>>> why people like me will not jump on the auto-update bandwagon!
>>>>> We get accused of endangering the entire Internet by not having the
>>>>> latest and greatest "security" upgrades! Me, I'll stick with what I
>>>>> know works. That said, I _*am*_ extremely greatfull to all you folks
>>>>> that do the beta checking of the new releases so when I do update,
>>>>> I know that version works.  :-)
>>>> I get users all the time demanding to have Firefox stop updating.
>>>> Because of how Firefox updates so poorly, users don't want to update at
>>>> all.  I can't blame them.
>>>>
>>> Why not recommend the ESR release for them?
>>
>> I have, but usually the response is negative, and ESR still updates,
>> regardless.
>>
> I thought it was only security patches, right?
>
Yes.  It is fairly rare, but sometimes a security patch does cause
compatibility problems.

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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

WaltS-3
In reply to this post by Sailfish-2
On 11/22/2012 10:07 PM, Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
> with on 11/22/2012 6:53 PM:
>> On 11/22/2012 9:15 AM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard
>>
>>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>>> with on 11/22/2012 7:43 AM:
>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:03 AM On a whim, jetjock pounded out on the keyboard
>>>>
>>>>> responder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because users have addons being disabled, toolbars disappear, sites
>>>>>>> don't open any longer, etc, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Silent" updates?  Hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not only that and I know the loyalist will quickly respond, but I duly
>>>>>> upgraded to 17 when my reminder popped up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Besides the inane changes which to me have no logical meaning, the
>>>>>> single biggest problem I am experiencing is that it slowed down the
>>>>>> access and loading to an absolute crawl.
>>>>>> Yes, I have plenty of resources, etc...don't need to go there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I opened the crappy IE 8 and bingo...everything sped along as it
>>>>>> used to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then downgraded to 16.0.2 and within 60 seconds was back to normal.
>>>>>> Zippy, speedy access and loading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have the talent to be a developer and I suppose maybe because
>>>>>> my ego isn't nearly large enough to want to push my thoughts
>>>>>> unilaterally onto everyone else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why, Why, Why???
>>>>> And yet, there are still folks in this group who just can't understand
>>>>> why people like me will not jump on the auto-update bandwagon!
>>>>> We get accused of endangering the entire Internet by not having the
>>>>> latest and greatest "security" upgrades! Me, I'll stick with what I
>>>>> know works. That said, I _*am*_ extremely greatfull to all you folks
>>>>> that do the beta checking of the new releases so when I do update,
>>>>> I know that version works.  :-)
>>>> I get users all the time demanding to have Firefox stop updating.
>>>> Because of how Firefox updates so poorly, users don't want to update at
>>>> all.  I can't blame them.
>>>>
>>> Why not recommend the ESR release for them?
>>
>> I have, but usually the response is negative, and ESR still updates,
>> regardless.
>>
> I thought it was only security patches, right?
>

Security and stability patches until the next ESR release, then all hell
breaks out for the individual user.

An organization can download Firefox 17.0 ESR right now, and IT can test
it for 12 weeks before rolling it out to the masses, while the masses
are still getting updates to Firefox 10.0 ESR for 12 weeks before it
reaches EOL.

That is the way I understand it.

--
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Thunderbird Release
Why are you punishing me for ignoring the rules?

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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

Ron Hunter
On 11/23/2012 7:17 AM, WaltS wrote:

> On 11/22/2012 10:07 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>> with on 11/22/2012 6:53 PM:
>>> On 11/22/2012 9:15 AM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard
>>>
>>>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>>>> with on 11/22/2012 7:43 AM:
>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:03 AM On a whim, jetjock pounded out on the keyboard
>>>>>
>>>>>> responder wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because users have addons being disabled, toolbars disappear, sites
>>>>>>>> don't open any longer, etc, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Silent" updates?  Hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not only that and I know the loyalist will quickly respond, but I
>>>>>>> duly
>>>>>>> upgraded to 17 when my reminder popped up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Besides the inane changes which to me have no logical meaning, the
>>>>>>> single biggest problem I am experiencing is that it slowed down the
>>>>>>> access and loading to an absolute crawl.
>>>>>>> Yes, I have plenty of resources, etc...don't need to go there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, I opened the crappy IE 8 and bingo...everything sped along as it
>>>>>>> used to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then downgraded to 16.0.2 and within 60 seconds was back to normal.
>>>>>>> Zippy, speedy access and loading.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have the talent to be a developer and I suppose maybe
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> my ego isn't nearly large enough to want to push my thoughts
>>>>>>> unilaterally onto everyone else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why, Why, Why???
>>>>>> And yet, there are still folks in this group who just can't
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> why people like me will not jump on the auto-update bandwagon!
>>>>>> We get accused of endangering the entire Internet by not having the
>>>>>> latest and greatest "security" upgrades! Me, I'll stick with what I
>>>>>> know works. That said, I _*am*_ extremely greatfull to all you folks
>>>>>> that do the beta checking of the new releases so when I do update,
>>>>>> I know that version works.  :-)
>>>>> I get users all the time demanding to have Firefox stop updating.
>>>>> Because of how Firefox updates so poorly, users don't want to
>>>>> update at
>>>>> all.  I can't blame them.
>>>>>
>>>> Why not recommend the ESR release for them?
>>>
>>> I have, but usually the response is negative, and ESR still updates,
>>> regardless.
>>>
>> I thought it was only security patches, right?
>>
>
> Security and stability patches until the next ESR release, then all hell
> breaks out for the individual user.
>
> An organization can download Firefox 17.0 ESR right now, and IT can test
> it for 12 weeks before rolling it out to the masses, while the masses
> are still getting updates to Firefox 10.0 ESR for 12 weeks before it
> reaches EOL.
>
> That is the way I understand it.
>
ESR is for people who don't want to learn anything for a whole year,
and/or are too lazy to keep up with the changes as they go.  But they
will STILL have to handle the issue, all at once, next year.  Do it a
piece at a time, or do it all at once?  Seems to me it is easier to do a
piece at a time.
But IT doesn't want to be bothered with PCs too often.

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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

»Q«
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 02:16:44 -0600
Ron Hunter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In other words, they WANT something to gripe about, and WANT to be
> exposed to hacking?  That makes NO sense.

I dunno about wanting to be exposed to hacking, but this group alone
provides evidence that people do want something to gripe about.
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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

Sailfish-2
In reply to this post by WaltS-3
My bloviated meandering follows what WaltS graced us with on 11/23/2012
5:17 AM:

> On 11/22/2012 10:07 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>> with on 11/22/2012 6:53 PM:
>>> On 11/22/2012 9:15 AM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard
>>>
>>>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>>>> with on 11/22/2012 7:43 AM:
>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:03 AM On a whim, jetjock pounded out on the keyboard
>>>>>
>>>>>> responder wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/21/2012 9:43 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because users have addons being disabled, toolbars disappear, sites
>>>>>>>> don't open any longer, etc, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Silent" updates?  Hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not only that and I know the loyalist will quickly respond, but I
>>>>>>> duly
>>>>>>> upgraded to 17 when my reminder popped up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Besides the inane changes which to me have no logical meaning, the
>>>>>>> single biggest problem I am experiencing is that it slowed down the
>>>>>>> access and loading to an absolute crawl.
>>>>>>> Yes, I have plenty of resources, etc...don't need to go there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, I opened the crappy IE 8 and bingo...everything sped along as it
>>>>>>> used to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then downgraded to 16.0.2 and within 60 seconds was back to normal.
>>>>>>> Zippy, speedy access and loading.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have the talent to be a developer and I suppose maybe
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> my ego isn't nearly large enough to want to push my thoughts
>>>>>>> unilaterally onto everyone else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why, Why, Why???
>>>>>> And yet, there are still folks in this group who just can't
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> why people like me will not jump on the auto-update bandwagon!
>>>>>> We get accused of endangering the entire Internet by not having the
>>>>>> latest and greatest "security" upgrades! Me, I'll stick with what I
>>>>>> know works. That said, I _*am*_ extremely greatfull to all you folks
>>>>>> that do the beta checking of the new releases so when I do update,
>>>>>> I know that version works.  :-)
>>>>> I get users all the time demanding to have Firefox stop updating.
>>>>> Because of how Firefox updates so poorly, users don't want to
>>>>> update at
>>>>> all.  I can't blame them.
>>>>>
>>>> Why not recommend the ESR release for them?
>>>
>>> I have, but usually the response is negative, and ESR still updates,
>>> regardless.
>>>
>> I thought it was only security patches, right?
>
> Security and stability patches until the next ESR release, then all hell
> breaks out for the individual user.
>
> An organization can download Firefox 17.0 ESR right now, and IT can test
> it for 12 weeks before rolling it out to the masses, while the masses
> are still getting updates to Firefox 10.0 ESR for 12 weeks before it
> reaches EOL.
>
> That is the way I understand it.
>
Thanks.

Both of which (security&stability) I think most people would want. Also,
it's good to remind folks that ESR releases were mainly an answer to
Enterprise accounts not having to have their IT staff be in constant
churn mode, testing/evaluating RRs. For them, they can choose to wait
until, in this case, Fx16.0 to start testing/evaluating all the changes
since ESR 10 and then have an additional 12 weeks to test the limited
changes of Fx 17 afterwards.

What's not to like?

--
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Mozilla Contributor Member - www.mozilla.org/credits/
Netscape/Mozilla Tips: http://www.ufaq.org/ , http://ilias.ca/
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://www.projectit.com/
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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by »Q«
On 11/23/2012 11:24 AM, »Q« wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 02:16:44 -0600
> Ron Hunter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> In other words, they WANT something to gripe about, and WANT to be
>> exposed to hacking?  That makes NO sense.
>
> I dunno about wanting to be exposed to hacking, but this group alone
> provides evidence that people do want something to gripe about.
>
When a person complains about a problem, and a workable solution is
presented, and the person then complains he doesn't want to waste his
time taking care of the problem, then he WANTS to gripe, NOT fix his
problem.

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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

The Wanderer
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 11/23/2012 03:14 AM, Ron Hunter wrote:

> On 11/22/2012 8:45 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> On 11/22/2012 7:57 AM On a whim, WaltS pounded out on the keyboard

>>> Is it how Firefox updates so poorly, or extensions, and themes don't work
>>> because during the 6 week Aurora cycle, and 6 week Beta cycle they don't
>>> test them, and update them to work.
>>
>> Firefox.  I've mentioned several times what users get with FF updates.
>> Nothing "silent" about them.  In fact, they seem to make a big deal about
>> an update occurring, unlike any other browser.
>
> Seems to me that other than the default theme, all the themes and extensions
> are developed by OTHER than Mozilla.  So, how can you blame Mozilla for that?

Because Mozilla are the ones who changed the browser in a way that isn't
backwards compatible. It used to work, now it doesn't, and the only difference
is that Mozilla changed something; therefore, Mozilla are to blame (or, if you
want different possibly-unfair terminology, "responsible") for it breaking.

Compatibility breaks should be a major thing, taking place only rarely, and
should never happen as part of a routine update; they should be reserved for a
major upgrade, such as - under the traditional model - when a new major version
is released.

That being one aspect of the main reason why breaking with that traditional
model by making every release a major-version release is a bad idea. A
major-version change is a way of saying "there are big, important changes here";
that lets people know they might want to investigate the new version closely
before upgrading.

Making *every* release a major-version release, and releasing one every six
weeks or so, either breaks the "major versions include big changes" rule (and
therefore provides no at-a-glance hints of what releases *do* include big
changes) or overloads people with those close investigations; in practice, from
what I've observed, it seems to do both.

--
    The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

Every time you let somebody set a limit they start moving it.
   - LiveJournal user antonia_tiger
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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

F1Com
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 11/23/2012 12:17 AM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard

> On 11/22/2012 8:54 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

>> No Ron.  It's pointless, that's why.  ESR updates also.  The resolve is
>> to turn off auto-update.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> No, that is self-destructive, and quite unnecessary.
>

Not when users would rather have their addons work properly than get a
Firefox update that breaks them.





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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

F1Com
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 11/23/2012 12:16 AM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard

> On 11/22/2012 8:53 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

>> I have, but usually the response is negative, and ESR still updates,
>> regardless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> In other words, they WANT something to gripe about, and WANT to be
> exposed to hacking?  That makes NO sense.
> OF course in the military, it is often pointed out that people aren't
> happy unless they have something to gripe about.
>

No, they want a truly "silent" update that works.  That appears to be
asking too much in the Mozilla world.




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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

F1Com
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 11/23/2012 12:05 PM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard

> On 11/23/2012 11:24 AM, »Q« wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 02:16:44 -0600
>> Ron Hunter<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>>> In other words, they WANT something to gripe about, and WANT to be
>>> exposed to hacking?  That makes NO sense.
>> I dunno about wanting to be exposed to hacking, but this group alone
>> provides evidence that people do want something to gripe about.
>>
> When a person complains about a problem, and a workable solution is
> presented, and the person then complains he doesn't want to waste his
> time taking care of the problem, then he WANTS to gripe, NOT fix his
> problem.
>

Funny, most of the ones that "gripe" to Mozilla are users in your age
group!  I could post dozens of emails a week for those that don't want
Mozilla screwing everything up (in their words) every month (yes, I know
it's 6 weeks, but they don't).



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Re: Can always tell when a new version has been released

F1Com
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 11/23/2012 12:20 AM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard

> On 11/22/2012 9:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> On 11/22/2012 9:21 AM On a whim, Ron Hunter pounded out on the keyboard
>>
>>> On 11/22/2012 9:50 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>> I updated over two dozen workstations on one network, and over half of
>>>> the machines required me to do something that shouldn't be required of
>>>> an average user.  One kept stating "Apply update" in the About dialog,
>>>> even though it stated the version was 17.  Another required 3 tries to
>>>> update even though I launched it with Administrator rights each time.
>>>>
>>>> And no, the Maintenance service doesn't seem to work on Limited user
>>>> accounts, regardless of the claim.  And yet Chrome updates and no one
>>>> ever notices.
>>>>
>>>> The only reason I update this way on network machines is to monitor how
>>>> an "average" machine reacts to updates.  Personally, it's faster for me
>>>> to download the complete file and install it rather than screwing around
>>>> with the poor update mechanism.  And that resolves the frequent firewall
>>>> not registering the new file issue also.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> So, you are blaming Firefox for the deficiency of your firewall?
>>> Amazing.  If you would rather use Chrome, by all means do so.  If you
>> Amazing?  Did I "blame" anything?  I only stated that from reports from
>> user experiences, and telling them to download the complete file is
>> easier than explaining how to register the file in their firewall.
>>
>>> like IE better, USE it.  If you want to use Firefox, then use that.  I
>>> have had VERY few problems with updates.  Some of the more useful
>>> (complex) addons have to be updated to work with new versions.  IF you
>>> don't like that, use some other addon, or don't use addons, or go to a
>>> browser that doesn't allow that kind of addon.  This kind of carping
>>> just doesn't make sense to me.
>>>
>> I don't use hardly any addons personally, as Firefox is mainly used for
>> support since it doesn't paste images into Gmail as explained in another
>> thread.
>>
>>
> Apparently YOURS doesn't.  Mine does.  Probably some subtle parameter
> setting somewhere.  I have, at last count, 22 installed, and active,
> extensions in Firefox.  Except for TACO with Abine (anti-tracking
> extension), they all seem to keep up with beta versions quite nicely.  I
> sometimes download a complete file, and sometimes update.  No trouble
> with either in a very long time.
>

Ron, I don't usually refer to my Firefox issues here.  I don't have any
issues, and if I do, I know how to resolve them.  I only report issues
for users like you who are in a little bubble and think everything is
peachy in Mozilla land.

You're a 2 computer person, right?  I deal with two to three hundred
Mozilla users a week about Mozilla issues.  Your minimal experience is
nothing compared to what personal communication I have, and listening to
what they go through.  And as I mentioned elsewhere, most of them are
users your age.



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