Beginning of the week should be a calendar's property, but not a property in Lightning

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Beginning of the week should be a calendar's property, but not a property in Lightning

STF-7
This mail is about beginning of the week.  Let's call it BOTW for short.

Currently, the BOTW (Sunday, Monday, etc) is defined as a software-wide
properties in Thunderbird/Lightning, ie
TB Options > Calendar (tab) > Views (tab) > General (section):
    Start the week on: xxxxx

However, for those who need to open shared calendars of other people,
there can be a situation that one calendar needs Sunday as BOTW while
the other needs Monday as BOTW.  For instance, someone in US shares his
calendar so the BOTW is Sunday; while at the same time, most European
countries including UK are using Monday as BOTW.

One of the consequences is the shift in week number.

Suggestion: move the "Start the week on:" option from Lightning
(software-wide) to every calendar level (calendar-wide).

If you're OK, I'm going to post a bug/request in Bugzilla for this to
keep the record.

Thanks
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Re: Beginning of the week should be a calendar's property, but not a property in Lightning

Philipp Kewisch-2
Hi STF,

sounds like a reasonable request. I could imagine something like global
properties vs calendar-specific properties, similar to how Thunderbird
has account-wide vs folder-specific properties.


Philipp
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Re: Beginning of the week should be a calendar's property, but not a property in Lightning

Stefan Sitter-2
In reply to this post by STF-7
On 01.06.2015 14:41, STF wrote:

> This mail is about beginning of the week.  Let's call it BOTW for short.
>
> Currently, the BOTW (Sunday, Monday, etc) is defined as a software-wide
> properties in Thunderbird/Lightning, ie
> TB Options > Calendar (tab) > Views (tab) > General (section):
>     Start the week on: xxxxx
>
> However, for those who need to open shared calendars of other people,
> there can be a situation that one calendar needs Sunday as BOTW while
> the other needs Monday as BOTW.  For instance, someone in US shares his
> calendar so the BOTW is Sunday; while at the same time, most European
> countries including UK are using Monday as BOTW.
>
> One of the consequences is the shift in week number.
>
> Suggestion: move the "Start the week on:" option from Lightning
> (software-wide) to every calendar level (calendar-wide).
>
> If you're OK, I'm going to post a bug/request in Bugzilla for this to
> keep the record.

This might sound useful from a technical point of view but in my opinion
not from a user experience view.

Let assume calendar A has first day of week set to Monday, calendar B
has it set to Sunday and calendar C has it set to Saturday. All are
enabled and visible. Now you switch to a calendar view. How will the
calendar view be displayed? What day is first?

IMHO you still need the one global setting that controls this behavior.

/Stefan
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Re: Beginning of the week should be a calendar's property, but not a property in Lightning

STF-7
On 2015.06.01 16:22, Stefan Sitter wrote:>
 > This might sound useful from a technical point of view but in my opinion
 > not from a user experience view.
 >
 > Let assume calendar A has first day of week set to Monday, calendar B
 > has it set to Sunday and calendar C has it set to Saturday. All are
 > enabled and visible. Now you switch to a calendar view. How will the
 > calendar view be displayed? What day is first?
 >
 > IMHO you still need the one global setting that controls this behavior.
 >
 > /Stefan

Good point.

Personally, when this situation arises, I would prefer TB/Lightning pops
up a dialog saying that their views are not compatible and I'm asked to
select one of two options:
1. Only the first selected calendar is shown (ie if I clicked Calendar B
at first, only B will be shown)
2. Mixed view and I'm asked to choose manually the BOTW (and it would be
nice to have an option "Don't ask me again" somewhere on the dialog)

But if you think it's better to keep software-wide property in addition
to calendar-wide one, why not.  But this software-wide property has to
be "overridable".

STF
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Re: Beginning of the week should be a calendar's property, but not a property in Lightning

Marcel Stör
In reply to this post by STF-7
On 01.06.15 14:41, STF wrote:
> For instance, someone in US shares his calendar so the BOTW is Sunday;
> while at the same time, most European countries including UK are using
> Monday as BOTW.

I don't understand this, what am I missing? AFAIU BOTW is a /client/
(i.e. user) setting that defines how calendar data should be /rendered/.
If for me the week starts on Monday it also starts on Monday if look at
a US calendar, no? It's irrelevant on which day the day the week starts
in the country/region a shared calendar originates.

> One of the consequences is the shift in week number.

Indeed, but what is the impact? It may be confusing only if you set up a
meeting with someone "on Sunday in week 40" if your week starts on
Monday but your peer's starts on Sunday. However, that's not how you
generally set up meetings.

Btw, this is very loosely related to the old TB bug 505981 where in a
comment[1] the various ways in which BOTW can currently be configured
was discussed.

[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=505981#c26

--
Marcel Stör, http://frightanic.com
O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - http://bit.ly/1sNwXAM
-> I kill Google posts: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
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Re: Beginning of the week should be a calendar's property, but not a property in Lightning

STF-7
On 2015.06.01 22:15, Marcel Stör wrote:
> On 01.06.15 14:41, STF wrote:
>> For instance, someone in US shares his calendar so the BOTW is Sunday;
>> while at the same time, most European countries including UK are using
>> Monday as BOTW.
>
> I don't understand this, what am I missing? AFAIU BOTW is a /client/
> (i.e. user) setting that defines how calendar data should be /rendered/.
> If for me the week starts on Monday it also starts on Monday if [I] look at
> a US calendar, no?

Yes, and that's the point you miss.

If you share your calendar with me, and if I open it, and suppose for me
Sunday is the BOTW, then on my screen, every week start on Sunday.

> It's irrelevant on which day the day the week starts
> in the country/region a shared calendar originates.

I don't understand of your adjective "irrelevant"...

>> One of the consequences is the shift in week number.
>
> Indeed, but what is the impact? It may be confusing only if you set up a
> meeting with someone "on Sunday in week 40" if your week starts on
> Monday but your peer's starts on Sunday. However, that's not how you
> generally set up meetings.

Not only for Sunday.  It could be everyday!

Do you know that there are many standards for "first week of the year"?
  We have:
1 - 1st January indicates first week of the year
2 - First week must contain at least 4 days
3 - First full week

Take the simple case where 1st January is a Sunday and first week of the
year contains 1st January (#1 above).

If BOTW = Sunday
   Week 1 contains 1st Jan (Sun), 2nd Jan (Mon), 3rd Jan (Tue), 4th Jan
(Wed), etc

If BOTW = Monday
   Week 1 contains 1st Jan (Sun) only
   Week 2 contains 2nd Jan (Mon), 3rd Jan (Tue), 4th Jan (Wed), etc

> Btw, this is very loosely related to the old TB bug 505981 where in a
> comment[1] the various ways in which BOTW can currently be configured
> was discussed.
>
> [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=505981#c26

OK, thanks.  Since that comment is a "small drop inside a big pool of
water", I don't think it got much attention.  Let's make a new bug on
this matter, OK?


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Re: Beginning of the week should be a calendar's property, but not a property in Lightning

Philipp Kewisch-2
On 6/2/15 3:25 PM, STF wrote:

>>
>> Indeed, but what is the impact? It may be confusing only if you set up a
>> meeting with someone "on Sunday in week 40" if your week starts on
>> Monday but your peer's starts on Sunday. However, that's not how you
>> generally set up meetings.
>
> Not only for Sunday.  It could be everyday!
>
> Do you know that there are many standards for "first week of the year"?
>  We have:
> 1 - 1st January indicates first week of the year
> 2 - First week must contain at least 4 days
> 3 - First full week

Ah ok, so there are indeed differences for display vs defining
recurrence rules. If all you really want is to be able to create rules
that repeat for example:

"YEARLY, in calendar weeks 24,28,32 for the case where start of week is
SUNDAY"

then this can be expressed with a RRULE:

RRULE:FREQ=YEARLY;BYWEEKNO=24,28,32;WKST=SU

Then, no matter if you or your partners have the view set to start with
Sunday or Monday, it will always display correctly.

I don't think we currently allow creating such advanced rules through
the UI, because its usually an edge case (most folks enter their
meetings through specific dates instead of week numbers).

I believe we have more than one bug open for more advanced recurrence
rules. Again, if this is all you really need then I think an extension
that adds additional recurrence rules to the UI would be the best option.

Philipp
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Re: Beginning of the week should be a calendar's property, but not a property in Lightning

STF-7
On 2015.06.02 20:36, Philipp Kewisch wrote:
> On 6/2/15 3:25 PM, STF wrote:
 >

>> Do you know that there are many standards for "first week of the year"?
>>   We have:
>> 1 - 1st January indicates first week of the year
>> 2 - First week must contain at least 4 days
>> 3 - First full week
>
> Ah ok, so there are indeed differences for display vs defining
> recurrence rules. If all you really want is to be able to create rules
> that repeat for example:
>
> "YEARLY, in calendar weeks 24,28,32 for the case where start of week is
> SUNDAY"
>
> then this can be expressed with a RRULE:
>
> RRULE:FREQ=YEARLY;BYWEEKNO=24,28,32;WKST=SU
>
> Then, no matter if you or your partners have the view set to start with
> Sunday or Monday, it will always display correctly.

I started this discussion because in my professional life, I have
conversations like this:
Project A will start in week 34 and last for 2 weeks, so be prepared to
start project B in no later than week 37, etc, etc

I don't know what RRULE is.  What you're talking about is "advanced
feature" for me :D

> I don't think we currently allow creating such advanced rules through
> the UI, because its usually an edge case (most folks enter their
> meetings through specific dates instead of week numbers).

Don't worry, I don't use it either ^_^

> I believe we have more than one bug open for more advanced recurrence
> rules. Again, if this is all you really need then I think an extension
> that adds additional recurrence rules to the UI would be the best option.

It's OK.  I don't need it.  I just need what's written in the title of
this thread:
Binding the "beginning of the week" property to a calendar, and as we've
seen, probably also "first week of the year" property to the calendar as
well.

Want me to file a request in bugzilla?


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