Automatic redirection of l10n bugs to Pontoon

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Automatic redirection of l10n bugs to Pontoon

Eduardo Trápani
Hi,

I just had many bugs, across locales, closed with a comment like this:

> Can you please suggest your change directly in Pontoon? Thanks!
>
https://pontoon.mozilla.org/es-ES/mozillaorg/firefox/features/password-manager.lang/?string=167945

I think that is wrong for many reasons:

* filing a l10n bug does not mean we can suggest anything. I personally
have filed bugs to locales I cannot read or write (Bug #1397769 for
example). Some people report bugs to locales they can read but do not
feel confident enough to propose (Bug #1394780). In either of those
cases it's wrong to send those people to Pontoon.

* Pontoon right now does not allow for a sane way to propose and follow
up on contributions. As a contributor, you don't know what's happening
to your contributions, in case they are simply forgotten or
"unreviewed". So, even if the contributor is right, probably the
proposed string will be ignored, and that's bad for all of us. And as a
manager, you cannot say what was wrong.

* if a string has been accepted, it's very unlikely that a suggestion
will be taken into account. Believe me, I've been through that and not
just once. The suggestion will sit there in Pontoon forever, even if the
accepted one was wrong. (that's actually the situation in the quoted
string - Bug #1392282).

* on the other hand, Bugzilla does allow for exchanges that are
essential in order to change translations. I know of a couple of
contributions that would have been rejected, had I not had a place to
explain them.

In the future I'm sure Pontoon will be able to deal with all this
properly, but right now,forcing it on bugs coming from Transvision ... I
don't think it's very helpful or a good idea. It's rather irritating, it
solves nothing. Let teams and contributors choose the best tool for the
job at hand.

Eduardo.
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Re: Automatic redirection of l10n bugs to Pontoon

Jeff Beatty
Thank you for the feedback, you make good points. And kudos to you for
keeping up with bugmail. I agree that the suggestion management situation
in Pontoon is not optimal for every community. Until then, however you and
your community are accustomed to moderating your suggestion queue (either
on bugzilla or Pontoon) is best.

Jeff

El 27 oct. 2017 17:42, "Eduardo Trápani" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> Hi,
>
> I just had many bugs, across locales, closed with a comment like this:
>
> > Can you please suggest your change directly in Pontoon? Thanks!
> >
> https://pontoon.mozilla.org/es-ES/mozillaorg/firefox/
> features/password-manager.lang/?string=167945
>
> I think that is wrong for many reasons:
>
> * filing a l10n bug does not mean we can suggest anything. I personally
> have filed bugs to locales I cannot read or write (Bug #1397769 for
> example). Some people report bugs to locales they can read but do not
> feel confident enough to propose (Bug #1394780). In either of those
> cases it's wrong to send those people to Pontoon.
>
> * Pontoon right now does not allow for a sane way to propose and follow
> up on contributions. As a contributor, you don't know what's happening
> to your contributions, in case they are simply forgotten or
> "unreviewed". So, even if the contributor is right, probably the
> proposed string will be ignored, and that's bad for all of us. And as a
> manager, you cannot say what was wrong.
>
> * if a string has been accepted, it's very unlikely that a suggestion
> will be taken into account. Believe me, I've been through that and not
> just once. The suggestion will sit there in Pontoon forever, even if the
> accepted one was wrong. (that's actually the situation in the quoted
> string - Bug #1392282).
>
> * on the other hand, Bugzilla does allow for exchanges that are
> essential in order to change translations. I know of a couple of
> contributions that would have been rejected, had I not had a place to
> explain them.
>
> In the future I'm sure Pontoon will be able to deal with all this
> properly, but right now,forcing it on bugs coming from Transvision ... I
> don't think it's very helpful or a good idea. It's rather irritating, it
> solves nothing. Let teams and contributors choose the best tool for the
> job at hand.
>
> Eduardo.
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
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Re: Automatic redirection of l10n bugs to Pontoon

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Il 28/10/17 02.14, Jeff Beatty ha scritto:
> Thank you for the feedback, you make good points. And kudos to you for
> keeping up with bugmail. I agree that the suggestion management situation
> in Pontoon is not optimal for every community. Until then, however you and
> your community are accustomed to moderating your suggestion queue (either
> on bugzilla or Pontoon) is best.
Hi Jeff,
Not sure if the Eduardo's point is completely clear: he's filing bugs
for other locales, while checking things on Transvision for his own
language.

If a bug is reported, I don't think closing them with "please suggest it
on Pontoon" is OK.

I could be the one reporting a bug, e.g. a missing variable, and I don't
speak the language to understand if the sentence makes sense just by
adding the variable somewhere. Or it could be a user, since Bugzilla is
the way to report bugs for Mozilla products.

The way I see it, each locale team should be in charge of keeping their
Mozilla Localizations component tidy, and I'm happy to help if you have
questions on how to close or address a bug.

Francesco
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Re: Automatic redirection of l10n bugs to Pontoon

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Il 28/10/17 08.15, Francesco Lodolo [:flod] ha scritto:

> Il 28/10/17 02.14, Jeff Beatty ha scritto:
>> Thank you for the feedback, you make good points. And kudos to you for
>> keeping up with bugmail. I agree that the suggestion management
>> situation
>> in Pontoon is not optimal for every community. Until then, however
>> you and
>> your community are accustomed to moderating your suggestion queue
>> (either
>> on bugzilla or Pontoon) is best.
> Hi Jeff,
> Not sure if the Eduardo's point is completely clear: he's filing bugs
> for other locales, while checking things on Transvision for his own
> language.
>
> If a bug is reported, I don't think closing them with "please suggest
> it on Pontoon" is OK.
>
> I could be the one reporting a bug, e.g. a missing variable, and I
> don't speak the language to understand if the sentence makes sense
> just by adding the variable somewhere. Or it could be a user, since
> Bugzilla is the way to report bugs for Mozilla products.
>
> The way I see it, each locale team should be in charge of keeping
> their Mozilla Localizations component tidy, and I'm happy to help if
> you have questions on how to close or address a bug.
Now that I caught up with bugmail. The person who was closing those bugs
is Kohei, he contributes to Japanese but he's also a dev mozilla.org
(and I'm pretty sure he's on this list, CCing him just in case).
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1411262#c2

Those bugs shouldn't have been closed, and I've just reopened them. If
the problem is the fact that mozilla.org bugs from Transvision are
reported in www.mozilla.org::L10n, that's a whole different story, and
I'm open to change it if there's agreement. At that point, I'd like to
understand what's the reason to have that component at all ("For
localizing pages, content and media on www.mozilla.org.")
https://github.com/mozfr/transvision/issues/879

Francesco
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Re: Automatic redirection of l10n bugs to Pontoon

Kohei Yoshino-2
In reply to this post by Eduardo Trápani
Hi Eduardo,

I'm sorry to bother you. I occasionally close www.mozilla.org bugs, inactive ones in particular. However my action was premature and I should have left more meaningful comments anyway. I didn't know that you were aware of Pontoon.

As a localizer I'd recommend using Pontoon to give quick feedback, but given that there's no means of communication on that tool, It's totally okay to use Bugzilla to discuss proposals. Hope the process on Pontoon would be better in the future, as you said.

I will no longer close l10n bugs unless the status is very clear.

-Kohei


On 2017-10-27 7:42 PM, Eduardo Trápani wrote:

> I just had many bugs, across locales, closed with a comment like this:
>
>> Can you please suggest your change directly in Pontoon? Thanks!
>>
> https://pontoon.mozilla.org/es-ES/mozillaorg/firefox/features/password-manager.lang/?string=167945
>
> I think that is wrong for many reasons:
>
> * filing a l10n bug does not mean we can suggest anything. I personally
> have filed bugs to locales I cannot read or write (Bug #1397769 for
> example). Some people report bugs to locales they can read but do not
> feel confident enough to propose (Bug #1394780). In either of those
> cases it's wrong to send those people to Pontoon.
>
> * Pontoon right now does not allow for a sane way to propose and follow
> up on contributions. As a contributor, you don't know what's happening
> to your contributions, in case they are simply forgotten or
> "unreviewed". So, even if the contributor is right, probably the
> proposed string will be ignored, and that's bad for all of us. And as a
> manager, you cannot say what was wrong.
>
> * if a string has been accepted, it's very unlikely that a suggestion
> will be taken into account. Believe me, I've been through that and not
> just once. The suggestion will sit there in Pontoon forever, even if the
> accepted one was wrong. (that's actually the situation in the quoted
> string - Bug #1392282).
>
> * on the other hand, Bugzilla does allow for exchanges that are
> essential in order to change translations. I know of a couple of
> contributions that would have been rejected, had I not had a place to
> explain them.
>
> In the future I'm sure Pontoon will be able to deal with all this
> properly, but right now,forcing it on bugs coming from Transvision ... I
> don't think it's very helpful or a good idea. It's rather irritating, it
> solves nothing. Let teams and contributors choose the best tool for the
> job at hand.
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Re: Automatic redirection of l10n bugs to Pontoon

Ricardo Palomares Martí­nez-3
In reply to this post by Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
El 28/10/17 a las 08:26, Francesco Lodolo [:flod] escribió:
> Those bugs shouldn't have been closed, and I've just reopened them.


Regarding the es-ES bug referenced by Eduardo:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1392282

I've approved Eduardo's suggestion, who was right (thanks again, Eduardo).

In my comment I wonder if the bug was originally assigned to the right
component by BMO categorization, but I think a bug like these should
reach the radar of the affected locale default assignee in BMO. As I
understand it, the bug was reporting a problem in the L10N of
www.mozilla.org, but not in the locale content itself. Thus was
directed to www.mozilla.org "makers", instead of the locale "makers".

TIA

--
Proyecto NAVE (Mozilla es-ES Localization Team)
Mozilla Hispano Community
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Re: Automatic redirection of l10n bugs to Pontoon

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Il 31/10/17 22.19, Ricardo Palomares Martí­nez ha scritto:
> In my comment I wonder if the bug was originally assigned to the right
> component by BMO categorization, but I think a bug like these should
> reach the radar of the affected locale default assignee in BMO. As I
> understand it, the bug was reporting a problem in the L10N of
> www.mozilla.org, but not in the locale content itself. Thus was
> directed to www.mozilla.org "makers", instead of the locale "makers".
For the record, www.mozilla.org::L10N bugs are reported on both
dashboards of the locale selected
https://l10n.mozilla.org/teams/es-ES
https://l10n.mozilla-community.org/webdashboard/?locale=es-ES

It's not a matter of default assignee (we don't use those anymore, even
in Mozilla Localizations). Unfortunately, you can't follow the es-ES
locale alone in that component, but you can create stored queries.

As I wrote before, I'm happy to change the way Transvision reports these
bugs, but at that point:
a) I question what's the use of www.mozilla.org::L10N
b) It won't solve the problem of bugs manually filed in that component

Francesco
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