Andrew's Cancelled Post

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Andrew's Cancelled Post

Jay Garcia
Andrew DeFaria posted a good link in m.s.thunderbird, I wish I would
have kept it. I see no reason why the post was cancelled even tho Andrew
is "banned". This is ridiculous to say the least. Cancel his posts that
violate the guidelines but don't cancel a good informative post. It's
not in good spirit and counterproductive to deny a user a good support
answer.

--
Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

squaredancer
On 02.10.2009 05:25, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
generate the following:? :
> Andrew DeFaria posted a good link in m.s.thunderbird, I wish I would
> have kept it. I see no reason why the post was cancelled even tho Andrew
> is "banned". This is ridiculous to say the least. Cancel his posts that
> violate the guidelines but don't cancel a good informative post. It's
> not in good spirit and counterproductive to deny a user a good support
> answer.
>
>  

I have at least 3 threads, where my posts are partially "not published"
- including the threads that Bob mentioned and the one we discussed before.
As to Andrew - Chris Illiass "explained" why Andrew's posts aren't
showing any more - Andrew has joined the ranks with Peter Hippo....

reg
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Jay Garcia
On 02.10.2009 04:02, squaredancer wrote:

  --- Original Message ---

> On 02.10.2009 05:25, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
> generate the following:? :
>> Andrew DeFaria posted a good link in m.s.thunderbird, I wish I would
>> have kept it. I see no reason why the post was cancelled even tho
>> Andrew is "banned". This is ridiculous to say the least. Cancel his
>> posts that violate the guidelines but don't cancel a good informative
>> post. It's not in good spirit and counterproductive to deny a user a
>> good support answer.
>>
>>  
>
> I have at least 3 threads, where my posts are partially "not published"
> - including the threads that Bob mentioned and the one we discussed before.
> As to Andrew - Chris Illiass "explained" why Andrew's posts aren't
> showing any more - Andrew has joined the ranks with Peter Hippo....
>
> reg

Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed. My
beef is that he posted a good link in support of the OP, nothing else,
just a good link. It should have been allowed to remain. IMHO this is
NOT the way to run a support venue. I'll just have to remember to copy
the good stuff while it's still available from now on and repost it.
It's a simple matter of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

How many posters that you can remember are no longer here that gave
really good support but were just a bit controversial, not banned ..
just decided to move on. How many can you name that have moved on that
were NOT controversial but just moved on because of the way things are
run. I've got all ten fingers used up at the moment.


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www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

KristleBawl
Jay Garcia wrote:
> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.

Banned = prohibited, not censored.

Assuming they are removed automatically, by filters, then there are no
humans involved and individual posts are not going to be read or
evaluated for acceptable content.  It is unreasonable to expect anyone
to read every header in every thread to find an individual sender's
postings and then read them before deleting them manually.

You can to review http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html and
decide for yourself whether or not you want to continue this.
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Robert Blair-2
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 10/1/2009 8:25 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
> Andrew DeFaria posted a good link in m.s.thunderbird, I wish I would
> have kept it. I see no reason why the post was cancelled even tho Andrew
> is "banned". This is ridiculous to say the least. Cancel his posts that
> violate the guidelines but don't cancel a good informative post. It's
> not in good spirit and counterproductive to deny a user a good support
> answer.
>

I found too many of his messages to be unacceptably vitriolic.  After I
set a filter in Thunderbird to ignore his messages, my blood pressure
improved.  Since I wouldn't see his messages, I wouldn't know if he were
banned.

--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>

Go to Mozdev at <http://www.mozdev.org/> for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 02.10.2009 05:25, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
generate the following:? :
> Andrew DeFaria posted a good link in m.s.thunderbird, I wish I would
> have kept it. I see no reason why the post was cancelled even tho Andrew
> is "banned". This is ridiculous to say the least. Cancel his posts that
> violate the guidelines but don't cancel a good informative post. It's
> not in good spirit and counterproductive to deny a user a good support
> answer.
>
>  
sIlli-ass banned him:

<news://news.mozilla.org:119/[hidden email]>

reg

========================================================

QUOTE original post

On 09-09-26 4:26 AM, tjoen wrote:
 > > Ken Whiton wrote:
 >> >>       It's nothing in your setup.  Andrew is subject to Mozilla's
 >> >> cancellation policy
 >> >> (<http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>),
 > >
 > > Because of this?
 > > http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
 > >     Post HTML at your own risk.


No, I banned him a while back for regular personal attacks.

HTML vs. plain-text, bottom-posting vs. top-posting, quoting everything
vs. snipping are not important. What is important is that everyone is
politely trying to help each other use Thunderbird.

Threads like this rarely if ever accomplish anything and don't really
help anyone. I understand that some of you are passionate about the
issue, but the debate doesn't belong in mozilla.support.thunderbird.

-- Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca> List-owner: support-firefox,
support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base:
<https://support.mozilla.com/kb/>

UNQUOTE
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

squaredancer
In reply to this post by KristleBawl
On 02.10.2009 17:17, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  KristleBawl to
generate the following:? :
> Jay Garcia wrote:
>  
>> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.
>>    
>
> Banned = prohibited, not censored.
>  


BANNED.... is banned - as in "not allowed to state his case, not allowed
to post"

QUOTE:

On 09-09-26 4:26 AM, tjoen wrote:
 > > Ken Whiton wrote:
 >> >>       It's nothing in your setup.  Andrew is subject to Mozilla's
 >> >> cancellation policy
 >> >> (<http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>),
 > >
 > > Because of this?
 > > http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
 > >     Post HTML at your own risk.


No, I banned him a while back for regular personal attacks.


<<snipped>>

-- Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca> List-owner: support-firefox,
support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base:
<https://support.mozilla.com/kb/>

UNQUOTE


> Assuming they are removed automatically,

where Illias is involved, the only thing that can be /safely/  assumed
is that he is malicious!

> by filters, then there are no humans involved

the "humanity" of the moderators has often been doubted
> and individual posts are not going to be read or
> evaluated for acceptable content.  It is unreasonable to expect anyone
> to read every header in every thread to find an individual sender's
> postings and then read them before deleting them manually.
>  

How very WRONG you are!

> You can to review http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html and
> decide for yourself whether or not you want to continue this.
>  

furthermore:
read ALL the Mozilla.support posts, then comment on the validity of
statements made!

reg
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by KristleBawl
On 02.10.2009 10:17, KristleBawl wrote:

  --- Original Message ---

> Jay Garcia wrote:
>> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.
>
> Banned = prohibited, not censored.
>
> Assuming they are removed automatically, by filters, then there are no
> humans involved and individual posts are not going to be read or
> evaluated for acceptable content.  It is unreasonable to expect anyone
> to read every header in every thread to find an individual sender's
> postings and then read them before deleting them manually.
>
> You can to review http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html and
> decide for yourself whether or not you want to continue this.

ChrisI said HE banned him. No evaluation, just
removed/cancelled/whatever, regaradless of content.


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Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Robert Blair-2
On 02.10.2009 11:12, David E. Ross wrote:

  --- Original Message ---

> On 10/1/2009 8:25 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>> Andrew DeFaria posted a good link in m.s.thunderbird, I wish I would
>> have kept it. I see no reason why the post was cancelled even tho Andrew
>> is "banned". This is ridiculous to say the least. Cancel his posts that
>> violate the guidelines but don't cancel a good informative post. It's
>> not in good spirit and counterproductive to deny a user a good support
>> answer.
>>
>
> I found too many of his messages to be unacceptably vitriolic.  After I
> set a filter in Thunderbird to ignore his messages, my blood pressure
> improved.  Since I wouldn't see his messages, I wouldn't know if he were
> banned.
>

Understandable and I agree. But when he posts a good answer, which he
does/did quite often sans vitriole then it shouldn't be cancelled, IMHO
of course. Like I said, throwing out the baby with the bath water.

--
Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

keith_w
In reply to this post by KristleBawl
KristleBawl wrote:
> Jay Garcia wrote:
>> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.

> Banned = prohibited, not censored.

There's a difference?

> Assuming they are removed automatically, by filters, then there are no
> humans involved and individual posts are not going to be read or
> evaluated for acceptable content.  

S'cuse me, a HUMAN made up the filters in the first place. Not some robot.

> It is unreasonable to expect anyone
> to read every header in every thread to find an individual sender's
> postings and then read them before deleting them manually.
>
> You can to review http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html and
> decide for yourself whether or not you want to continue this.

keith whaley
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by squaredancer
On 02.10.2009 13:08, squaredancer wrote:

  --- Original Message ---

> On 02.10.2009 17:17, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  KristleBawl to
> generate the following:? :
>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>  
>>> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.
>>>    
>>
>> Banned = prohibited, not censored.
>>  
>
>
> BANNED.... is banned - as in "not allowed to state his case, not allowed
> to post"
>
> QUOTE:
>
> On 09-09-26 4:26 AM, tjoen wrote:
>  > > Ken Whiton wrote:
>  >> >>       It's nothing in your setup.  Andrew is subject to Mozilla's
>  >> >> cancellation policy
>  >> >> (<http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>),
>  > >
>  > > Because of this?
>  > > http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
>  > >     Post HTML at your own risk.
>
>
> No, I banned him a while back for regular personal attacks.
>
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> -- Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca> List-owner: support-firefox,
> support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base:
> <https://support.mozilla.com/kb/>
>
> UNQUOTE
>
>
>> Assuming they are removed automatically,
>
> where Illias is involved, the only thing that can be /safely/  assumed
> is that he is malicious!
>
>> by filters, then there are no humans involved
>
> the "humanity" of the moderators has often been doubted
>> and individual posts are not going to be read or evaluated for
>> acceptable content.  It is unreasonable to expect anyone to read every
>> header in every thread to find an individual sender's postings and
>> then read them before deleting them manually.
>>  
>
> How very WRONG you are!
>
>> You can to review http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html and
>> decide for yourself whether or not you want to continue this.
>>  
>
> furthermore:
> read ALL the Mozilla.support posts, then comment on the validity of
> statements made!
>
> reg

Banned or not, his posts still show up until removed which can be a
matter of hours or even a day like the last one I mentioned about the
link he posted. They are NOT removed instantly as if he couldn't even
access the server to begin with.

--
Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by keith_w
On 02.10.2009 14:20, keith_w wrote:

  --- Original Message ---

> KristleBawl wrote:
>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.
>
>> Banned = prohibited, not censored.
>
> There's a difference?
>
>> Assuming they are removed automatically, by filters, then there are no
>> humans involved and individual posts are not going to be read or
>> evaluated for acceptable content.  
>
> S'cuse me, a HUMAN made up the filters in the first place. Not some robot.

What he means by that is that yes, a human configured the filter but
afterwards it runs automatically without any further human "manual"
intervention.

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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 02.10.2009 22:26, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
generate the following:? :

> On 02.10.2009 13:08, squaredancer wrote:
>
>   --- Original Message ---
>
>  
>> On 02.10.2009 17:17, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  KristleBawl to
>> generate the following:? :
>>    
>>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>> Banned = prohibited, not censored.
>>>  
>>>      
>> BANNED.... is banned - as in "not allowed to state his case, not allowed
>> to post"
>>
>> QUOTE:
>>
>> On 09-09-26 4:26 AM, tjoen wrote:
>>  > > Ken Whiton wrote:
>>  >> >>       It's nothing in your setup.  Andrew is subject to Mozilla's
>>  >> >> cancellation policy
>>  >> >> (<http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>),
>>  > >
>>  > > Because of this?
>>  > > http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
>>  > >     Post HTML at your own risk.
>>
>>
>> No, I banned him a while back for regular personal attacks.
>>
>>
>> <<snipped>>
>>
>> -- Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca> List-owner: support-firefox,
>> support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base:
>> <https://support.mozilla.com/kb/>
>>
>> UNQUOTE
>>
>>
>>    
>>> Assuming they are removed automatically,
>>>      
>> where Illias is involved, the only thing that can be /safely/  assumed
>> is that he is malicious!
>>
>>    
>>> by filters, then there are no humans involved
>>>      
>> the "humanity" of the moderators has often been doubted
>>    
>>> and individual posts are not going to be read or evaluated for
>>> acceptable content.  It is unreasonable to expect anyone to read every
>>> header in every thread to find an individual sender's postings and
>>> then read them before deleting them manually.
>>>  
>>>      
>> How very WRONG you are!
>>
>>    
>>> You can to review http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html and
>>> decide for yourself whether or not you want to continue this.
>>>  
>>>      
>> furthermore:
>> read ALL the Mozilla.support posts, then comment on the validity of
>> statements made!
>>
>> reg
>>    
>
> Banned or not, his posts still show up until removed which can be a
> matter of hours or even a day like the last one I mentioned about the
> link he posted. They are NOT removed instantly as if he couldn't even
> access the server to begin with.
>
>  

just goes to prove, how idiotically organized the Cyber Cop Brigade is.

reg
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

KristleBawl
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Jay Garcia wrote:

> On 02.10.2009 10:17, KristleBawl wrote:
>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.
>>
>> Banned = prohibited, not censored.
>>
>> Assuming they are removed automatically, by filters, then there are no
>> humans involved and individual posts are not going to be read or
>> evaluated for acceptable content.  It is unreasonable to expect anyone
>> to read every header in every thread to find an individual sender's
>> postings and then read them before deleting them manually.
>>
>> You can to review http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html and
>> decide for yourself whether or not you want to continue this.
>
> ChrisI said HE banned him. No evaluation, just
> removed/cancelled/whatever, regaradless of content.

Yes, he said /for regular personal attacks/ as in more than once.

The cause was not info or help, but other posts that violated TOS,
acceptable use, Netiquette, etc.

I simply meant that, once banned, it's probably automatic.  Right or
wrong is irrelevant, the fact is that someone with the authority to make
that decision did so.  Debating and complaining is counter productive.
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Robert Blair-2
David E. Ross wrote:

> On 10/1/2009 8:25 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>> Andrew DeFaria posted a good link in m.s.thunderbird, I wish I would
>> have kept it. I see no reason why the post was cancelled even tho Andrew
>> is "banned". This is ridiculous to say the least. Cancel his posts that
>> violate the guidelines but don't cancel a good informative post. It's
>> not in good spirit and counterproductive to deny a user a good support
>> answer.
>>
>
> I found too many of his messages to be unacceptably vitriolic.  After I
> set a filter in Thunderbird to ignore his messages, my blood pressure
> improved.  Since I wouldn't see his messages, I wouldn't know if he were
> banned.
>
Same here.  Andrew often gave very good answers, and he is obviously an
experienced, and intelligent person, but he lacks the willingness to
obey basic rules of common courtesy, and simply ignores any rules he
doesn't like.  I think his advice can be replaced by some from others
who aren't so anti-social in their actions.
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Jay Garcia wrote:

> On 02.10.2009 10:17, KristleBawl wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.
>>
>> Banned = prohibited, not censored.
>>
>> Assuming they are removed automatically, by filters, then there are no
>> humans involved and individual posts are not going to be read or
>> evaluated for acceptable content.  It is unreasonable to expect anyone
>> to read every header in every thread to find an individual sender's
>> postings and then read them before deleting them manually.
>>
>> You can to review http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html and
>> decide for yourself whether or not you want to continue this.
>
> ChrisI said HE banned him. No evaluation, just
> removed/cancelled/whatever, regaradless of content.
>
>
I don't always agree with Chris, and he cancels some of MY posts.  Not
complaining, he decides one is off topic, it's gone.  Doesn't hurt me
any.  I have been around here too long to have a thin skin.
In this case (Andrew) I agree with Chris.
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Jay Garcia wrote:

> On 02.10.2009 11:12, David E. Ross wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>> On 10/1/2009 8:25 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> Andrew DeFaria posted a good link in m.s.thunderbird, I wish I would
>>> have kept it. I see no reason why the post was cancelled even tho
>>> Andrew is "banned". This is ridiculous to say the least. Cancel his
>>> posts that violate the guidelines but don't cancel a good informative
>>> post. It's not in good spirit and counterproductive to deny a user a
>>> good support answer.
>>>
>>
>> I found too many of his messages to be unacceptably vitriolic.  After I
>> set a filter in Thunderbird to ignore his messages, my blood pressure
>> improved.  Since I wouldn't see his messages, I wouldn't know if he were
>> banned.
>>
>
> Understandable and I agree. But when he posts a good answer, which he
> does/did quite often sans vitriole then it shouldn't be cancelled, IMHO
> of course. Like I said, throwing out the baby with the bath water.
>
I don't recall ever seeing a helpful post in which he didn't either use
extreme language, or personal attacks.
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

propman
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Jay Garcia wrote:

> On 02.10.2009 11:12, David E. Ross wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>> On 10/1/2009 8:25 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> Andrew DeFaria posted a good link in m.s.thunderbird, I wish I would
>>> have kept it. I see no reason why the post was cancelled even tho
>>> Andrew is "banned". This is ridiculous to say the least. Cancel his
>>> posts that violate the guidelines but don't cancel a good informative
>>> post. It's not in good spirit and counterproductive to deny a user a
>>> good support answer.
>>>
>>
>> I found too many of his messages to be unacceptably vitriolic.  After I
>> set a filter in Thunderbird to ignore his messages, my blood pressure
>> improved.  Since I wouldn't see his messages, I wouldn't know if he were
>> banned.
>>
>
> Understandable and I agree. But when he posts a good answer, which he
> does/did quite often sans vitriole then it shouldn't be cancelled, IMHO
> of course. Like I said, throwing out the baby with the bath water.
>

FWIW, I don't know Andrew....but I bet I have run into many like him
before when BBS'ing and Interneting over the years.  Can't say I agree
with your opinion re: "good answer" vrs "vitriolic".....said it before
and I will say it again, if a person generally can't show good manners
then I really don't care how much they know, it's into the twit file
with them. These days my tolerance for these kind of rascals is getting
shorter and shorter....

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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by KristleBawl
On 02.10.2009 17:16, KristleBawl wrote:

  --- Original Message ---

> Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 02.10.2009 10:17, KristleBawl wrote:
>>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.
>>>
>>> Banned = prohibited, not censored.
>>>
>>> Assuming they are removed automatically, by filters, then there are
>>> no humans involved and individual posts are not going to be read or
>>> evaluated for acceptable content.  It is unreasonable to expect
>>> anyone to read every header in every thread to find an individual
>>> sender's postings and then read them before deleting them manually.
>>>
>>> You can to review http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html and
>>> decide for yourself whether or not you want to continue this.
>>
>> ChrisI said HE banned him. No evaluation, just
>> removed/cancelled/whatever, regaradless of content.
>
> Yes, he said /for regular personal attacks/ as in more than once.
>
> The cause was not info or help, but other posts that violated TOS,
> acceptable use, Netiquette, etc.
>
> I simply meant that, once banned, it's probably automatic.  Right or
> wrong is irrelevant, the fact is that someone with the authority to make
> that decision did so.  Debating and complaining is counter productive.

There is no such thing as non-productive here in .general .. :-D

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Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
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Re: Andrew's Cancelled Post

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 02.10.2009 19:10, Ron Hunter wrote:

  --- Original Message ---

> Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 02.10.2009 10:17, KristleBawl wrote:
>>
>>  --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>> Andrew's posts show up until they are discovered and THEN removed.
>>>
>>> Banned = prohibited, not censored.
>>>
>>> Assuming they are removed automatically, by filters, then there are
>>> no humans involved and individual posts are not going to be read or
>>> evaluated for acceptable content.  It is unreasonable to expect
>>> anyone to read every header in every thread to find an individual
>>> sender's postings and then read them before deleting them manually.
>>>
>>> You can to review http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html and
>>> decide for yourself whether or not you want to continue this.
>>
>> ChrisI said HE banned him. No evaluation, just
>> removed/cancelled/whatever, regaradless of content.
>>
>>
> I don't always agree with Chris, and he cancels some of MY posts.  Not
> complaining, he decides one is off topic, it's gone.  Doesn't hurt me
> any.  I have been around here too long to have a thin skin.
> In this case (Andrew) I agree with Chris.

There was only one user banned on secnews. There were others that gave
some really good support now and then but were vitriolic, nuisances and
so on but we allowed those users to remain because of their good support
and just put up with the annoyances. The user that needs support is the
main focus, the rest is secondary.


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Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
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