Abandon the calendar extension

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Abandon the calendar extension

Simon Paquet-2
[X-Post to mozilla.support.calendar, F'up2 mozilla.dev.apps.calendar]

Hi guys,

since a few people are now making an effort to discuss more publicly
about stuff that has only been discussed via mail or IRC in the past,
I'll try to follow this effort.

Before I start, let me state, that everything in this post is just my
personal opinion and not necessarily the opinion of the other calendar
developers or the project as a whole. I would also advise everyone to
keep this a civil discussion and not start a flamewar here.


Okay, now it is my opinion that we should seriously consider to abandon
the development of the calendar extension for Firefox, Thunderbird and
Seamonkey and just concentrate on Lightning and Sunbird in the future.

My reasons for this are as follows:

- No active calendar developer currently works on the calendar
  extension or is interested in devoting his time to the extension.
- Although requests have been made by the current calendar developers,
  nobody has stepped forward and offered to actively maintain the
  calendar extension.
- While the extension gets all the features and bugfixes that Sunbird
  gets, no effort is made from the developer side to actively test it,
  which means that nobody really knows what the current state of the
  extension really is.
- Actively maintaining the extension would mean a much more complex
  testing matrix for the calendar developers. Currently we have to
  test code checkins on our three major platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac)
  for Lightning and Sunbird. Testing the calendar extension would
  mean testing on all three platforms for all three products (Firefox,
  Thunderbird, Seamonkey). This means 9 additional combinations have
  to be tested.
- Lightning is the superior product in terms of functionality and is
  already available for Thunderbird. In the future it may be made
  available for Firefox. If Seamonkey finally manages to move to the
  new toolkit code, Lightning can be easily be ported to Seamonkey.
- The calendar extension hasn't been actively maintained for months.
  IMO it is better and much more credible to openly say that this is
  not gonna change, than to keep it in this state of limbo in the
  coming months and still have users who are waiting for an update,
  which may never appear.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

--
Simon Paquet
Sunbird/Calendar/Lightning website maintainer
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

zeddock-3
I agree.
-zeddock

Let's see where this goes....

Simon Paquet wrote:

> [X-Post to mozilla.support.calendar, F'up2 mozilla.dev.apps.calendar]
>
> Hi guys,
>
> since a few people are now making an effort to discuss more publicly
> about stuff that has only been discussed via mail or IRC in the past,
> I'll try to follow this effort.
>
> Before I start, let me state, that everything in this post is just my
> personal opinion and not necessarily the opinion of the other calendar
> developers or the project as a whole. I would also advise everyone to
> keep this a civil discussion and not start a flamewar here.
>
>
> Okay, now it is my opinion that we should seriously consider to abandon
> the development of the calendar extension for Firefox, Thunderbird and
> Seamonkey and just concentrate on Lightning and Sunbird in the future.
>
> My reasons for this are as follows:
>
> - No active calendar developer currently works on the calendar
>  extension or is interested in devoting his time to the extension.
> - Although requests have been made by the current calendar developers,
>  nobody has stepped forward and offered to actively maintain the
>  calendar extension.
> - While the extension gets all the features and bugfixes that Sunbird
>  gets, no effort is made from the developer side to actively test it,
>  which means that nobody really knows what the current state of the
>  extension really is.
> - Actively maintaining the extension would mean a much more complex
>  testing matrix for the calendar developers. Currently we have to
>  test code checkins on our three major platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac)
>  for Lightning and Sunbird. Testing the calendar extension would
>  mean testing on all three platforms for all three products (Firefox,
>  Thunderbird, Seamonkey). This means 9 additional combinations have
>  to be tested.
> - Lightning is the superior product in terms of functionality and is
>  already available for Thunderbird. In the future it may be made
>  available for Firefox. If Seamonkey finally manages to move to the
>  new toolkit code, Lightning can be easily be ported to Seamonkey.
> - The calendar extension hasn't been actively maintained for months.
>  IMO it is better and much more credible to openly say that this is
>  not gonna change, than to keep it in this state of limbo in the
>  coming months and still have users who are waiting for an update,
>  which may never appear.
>
> I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
>

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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

zeddock-3
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
I agree.

-zeddock


Simon Paquet wrote:

> [X-Post to mozilla.support.calendar, F'up2 mozilla.dev.apps.calendar]
>
> Hi guys,
>
> since a few people are now making an effort to discuss more publicly
> about stuff that has only been discussed via mail or IRC in the past,
> I'll try to follow this effort.
>
> Before I start, let me state, that everything in this post is just my
> personal opinion and not necessarily the opinion of the other calendar
> developers or the project as a whole. I would also advise everyone to
> keep this a civil discussion and not start a flamewar here.
>
>
> Okay, now it is my opinion that we should seriously consider to abandon
> the development of the calendar extension for Firefox, Thunderbird and
> Seamonkey and just concentrate on Lightning and Sunbird in the future.
>
> My reasons for this are as follows:
>
> - No active calendar developer currently works on the calendar
>  extension or is interested in devoting his time to the extension.
> - Although requests have been made by the current calendar developers,
>  nobody has stepped forward and offered to actively maintain the
>  calendar extension.
> - While the extension gets all the features and bugfixes that Sunbird
>  gets, no effort is made from the developer side to actively test it,
>  which means that nobody really knows what the current state of the
>  extension really is.
> - Actively maintaining the extension would mean a much more complex
>  testing matrix for the calendar developers. Currently we have to
>  test code checkins on our three major platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac)
>  for Lightning and Sunbird. Testing the calendar extension would
>  mean testing on all three platforms for all three products (Firefox,
>  Thunderbird, Seamonkey). This means 9 additional combinations have
>  to be tested.
> - Lightning is the superior product in terms of functionality and is
>  already available for Thunderbird. In the future it may be made
>  available for Firefox. If Seamonkey finally manages to move to the
>  new toolkit code, Lightning can be easily be ported to Seamonkey.
> - The calendar extension hasn't been actively maintained for months.
>  IMO it is better and much more credible to openly say that this is
>  not gonna change, than to keep it in this state of limbo in the
>  coming months and still have users who are waiting for an update,
>  which may never appear.
>
> I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
>

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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Bob Burns
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
Simon Paquet wrote:

> [X-Post to mozilla.support.calendar, F'up2 mozilla.dev.apps.calendar]
>
> Hi guys,
>
> since a few people are now making an effort to discuss more publicly
> about stuff that has only been discussed via mail or IRC in the past,
> I'll try to follow this effort.
>
> Before I start, let me state, that everything in this post is just my
> personal opinion and not necessarily the opinion of the other calendar
> developers or the project as a whole. I would also advise everyone to
> keep this a civil discussion and not start a flamewar here.
>
>
> Okay, now it is my opinion that we should seriously consider to abandon
> the development of the calendar extension for Firefox, Thunderbird and
> Seamonkey and just concentrate on Lightning and Sunbird in the future.
>
> My reasons for this are as follows:
>
> - No active calendar developer currently works on the calendar
>  extension or is interested in devoting his time to the extension.
> - Although requests have been made by the current calendar developers,
>  nobody has stepped forward and offered to actively maintain the
>  calendar extension.
> - While the extension gets all the features and bugfixes that Sunbird
>  gets, no effort is made from the developer side to actively test it,
>  which means that nobody really knows what the current state of the
>  extension really is.
> - Actively maintaining the extension would mean a much more complex
>  testing matrix for the calendar developers. Currently we have to
>  test code checkins on our three major platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac)
>  for Lightning and Sunbird. Testing the calendar extension would
>  mean testing on all three platforms for all three products (Firefox,
>  Thunderbird, Seamonkey). This means 9 additional combinations have
>  to be tested.
> - Lightning is the superior product in terms of functionality and is
>  already available for Thunderbird. In the future it may be made
>  available for Firefox. If Seamonkey finally manages to move to the
>  new toolkit code, Lightning can be easily be ported to Seamonkey.
> - The calendar extension hasn't been actively maintained for months.
>  IMO it is better and much more credible to openly say that this is
>  not gonna change, than to keep it in this state of limbo in the
>  coming months and still have users who are waiting for an update,
>  which may never appear.
>
> I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
>
Speaking as a new user, I don't care if the calendar is an extension or
stand alone, as long as it works.

--
--------------------
"Every day is Saturday when you're retired."

Bob Burns
Mill Hall PA
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Joey Minta
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
I dislike maintaining the calendar extension as much as anybody.  At
this stage, however, I don't think we're quite to a point where we can
abandon it.  There are two reasons: Firefox and SeaMonkey.  I spent a
few days at one point playing around with getting Lightning to work in
Firefox in a clean, out-of-the-box way.  Although I made some progress,
there were still significant technical obstacles to making this work
reliably.  Until we're sure that we have a replacement calendar project
for Firefox (and SeaMonkey?), or at least that we know what the
replacement looks like and when it will arrive, I tend to think we
should keep the calendar project in it's current state of limbo.
Perhaps next week's status meeting will shed more light on the above
question, though and make the status of the calendar xpi more clear.

Either way, it seems to me that a discussion on browser-calendaring
(supplamental to the one on the Calendar blog) needs to precede any
decision on the calendar xpi's status.

-Joey
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Peter Weilbacher
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
Simon Paquet wrote:

> - No active calendar developer currently works on the calendar
>   extension or is interested in devoting his time to the extension.
> - Although requests have been made by the current calendar developers,
>   nobody has stepped forward and offered to actively maintain the
>   calendar extension.

Let me call it CalExt for short.

Could this not continue similar to tier-2 platforms, where fixes are
done by voluteers when necessary? The OS/2 platform still works like
that. It's a bit "dangerous" but until now it works quite well (about 3
people contribute actively with a small (<10) community of active testers).
I don't see why that shouldn't work for the much smaller calendar
codebase, especially as most (all?) of the changes would be almost
identical for Sunbird and CalExt.

> - While the extension gets all the features and bugfixes that Sunbird
>   gets, no effort is made from the developer side to actively test it,
>   which means that nobody really knows what the current state of the
>   extension really is.

Now that I finally got it to build for OS/2 (last weekend), it seems to
work fine for SeaMonkey. So I don't really see the point of officially
abandoning it now. That said, although I have contributed some very
minor patches I am not familiar with the code nor existing known bugs.

The one problem that got noticed is that although localizations exist,
not all of them are up to date, or they are updated but not in the CVS
tree. If I understood KaiRo correctly this is at least partly due to
restrictions that you Calendar guys have for l10n checkins.

> - Actively maintaining the extension would mean a much more complex
>   testing matrix for the calendar developers. Currently we have to
>   test code checkins on our three major platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac)
>   for Lightning and Sunbird. Testing the calendar extension would
>   mean testing on all three platforms for all three products (Firefox,
>   Thunderbird, Seamonkey). This means 9 additional combinations have
>   to be tested.

See below, I agree to reduce this to 3 combinations (CalExt on
SeaMonkey, 4 if OS/2 is included), once I can get my Evolution calendar
imported, I will be able to more actively test on Linux and OS/2 and do
bug triaging.

Is there a testing framework for Sunbird that you follow regularly or at
least before releases and that could be adopted for CalExt?

> - Lightning is the superior product in terms of functionality and is
>   already available for Thunderbird. In the future it may be made
>   available for Firefox. If Seamonkey finally manages to move to the
>   new toolkit code, Lightning can be easily be ported to Seamonkey.

When Lightning reaches a state when the release notes do not state that
dataloss is to be expected _and_ it works as extension to a SeaMonkey
release then it might be a time to totally abandon CalExt.

> - The calendar extension hasn't been actively maintained for months.

Just yesterday mostafah checked in a small patch for me. :-) (OK, I
agree, that isn't active maintenance.)

>   IMO it is better and much more credible to openly say that this is
>   not gonna change, than to keep it in this state of limbo in the
>   coming months and still have users who are waiting for an update,
>   which may never appear.

All users who previously used CalExt in the Mozilla 1.7.x suite deserve
that we at least keep it updated until there is a real integrated
alternative. Even in the small OS/2 community there was quite a demand
for that.
I would agree to abandon it for Firefox and Thunderbird, though. For
users of those apps Sunbird should be a viable alternative.

   Peter.
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Joey Minta
Just to get this out on the table, the following bugs are examples of
difficulties encountered in developing both "calExt" and Sunbird:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=306079
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=330716
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325660

Peter Weilbacher wrote:
> The one problem that got noticed is that although localizations exist,
> not all of them are up to date, or they are updated but not in the CVS
> tree. If I understood KaiRo correctly this is at least partly due to
> restrictions that you Calendar guys have for l10n checkins.
KaiRo and others have done some great work on helping us get the l10n
situation fixed.  We asked them to hold off making more changes until
Lightning 0.1 was released.

> Is there a testing framework for Sunbird that you follow regularly or at
> least before releases and that could be adopted for CalExt?
Not particularly.  There is http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:Tests but
that's not much.  Mostly we rely on the fairly heavy use that nightly
builds get and the theory that enough eyes will spot most bugs.

>
>> - Lightning is the superior product in terms of functionality and is
>>   already available for Thunderbird. In the future it may be made
>>   available for Firefox. If Seamonkey finally manages to move to the
>>   new toolkit code, Lightning can be easily be ported to Seamonkey.
>
> When Lightning reaches a state when the release notes do not state that
> dataloss is to be expected _and_ it works as extension to a SeaMonkey
> release then it might be a time to totally abandon CalExt.
The important thing that I don't think enough people realize is that (1)
Current trunk Calendar, because it shares the same codebase, has the
same dataloss bugs and (2) "calExt v0.2" has, in my opinion, more
dataloss bugs than Lightning 0.1.  The Lightning 0.1 was just much more
up front about them.  At this stage of development, I would definitely
trust my data to Lightning over any older version of CalExt.

>
>> - The calendar extension hasn't been actively maintained for months.
>
> Just yesterday mostafah checked in a small patch for me. :-) (OK, I
> agree, that isn't active maintenance.)
Thanks for that, by the way!

-Joey
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Jeff Beal
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
Simon Paquet wrote:

> [X-Post to mozilla.support.calendar, F'up2 mozilla.dev.apps.calendar]
>
> Hi guys,
>
> since a few people are now making an effort to discuss more publicly
> about stuff that has only been discussed via mail or IRC in the past,
> I'll try to follow this effort.
>
> Before I start, let me state, that everything in this post is just my
> personal opinion and not necessarily the opinion of the other calendar
> developers or the project as a whole. I would also advise everyone to
> keep this a civil discussion and not start a flamewar here.
>
>
> Okay, now it is my opinion that we should seriously consider to abandon
> the development of the calendar extension for Firefox, Thunderbird and
> Seamonkey and just concentrate on Lightning and Sunbird in the future.
>
> My reasons for this are as follows:
>
> - No active calendar developer currently works on the calendar
>  extension or is interested in devoting his time to the extension.
> - Although requests have been made by the current calendar developers,
>  nobody has stepped forward and offered to actively maintain the
>  calendar extension.
> - While the extension gets all the features and bugfixes that Sunbird
>  gets, no effort is made from the developer side to actively test it,
>  which means that nobody really knows what the current state of the
>  extension really is.
> - Actively maintaining the extension would mean a much more complex
>  testing matrix for the calendar developers. Currently we have to
>  test code checkins on our three major platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac)
>  for Lightning and Sunbird. Testing the calendar extension would
>  mean testing on all three platforms for all three products (Firefox,
>  Thunderbird, Seamonkey). This means 9 additional combinations have
>  to be tested.
> - Lightning is the superior product in terms of functionality and is
>  already available for Thunderbird. In the future it may be made
>  available for Firefox. If Seamonkey finally manages to move to the
>  new toolkit code, Lightning can be easily be ported to Seamonkey.
> - The calendar extension hasn't been actively maintained for months.
>  IMO it is better and much more credible to openly say that this is
>  not gonna change, than to keep it in this state of limbo in the
>  coming months and still have users who are waiting for an update,
>  which may never appear.
>
> I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
>

First off, I've been using the Calendar Extension for SeaMonkey, and I
like having it.  I like having my browser, my mail client, and my
calendar all start up at once and all be in the same space on my Windows
taskbar.

Regarding Lightning, I would much rather use that than the Calendar
Extension, but I'm not willing to abandon SeaMonkey to do so.  Once it
gets ported to SeaMonkey, I'm fully in support of killing the extension
once and for all.

In the meantime, if you want to sign me up for testing the extension on
the SeaMonkey/Windows XP portion of the matrix, go ahead (1 down, 8 to
go).  I won't be able to promise much in terms of time, but if that's
what it takes for me to have an updated calendar for SeaMonkey, I'm all
for it.

--
Jeff Beal
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Simon Paquet-2
In reply to this post by Peter Weilbacher
Peter Weilbacher wrote on 22. Mar 2006:

>> - No active calendar developer currently works on the calendar
>>   extension or is interested in devoting his time to the extension.
>> - Although requests have been made by the current calendar
>>   developers, nobody has stepped forward and offered to actively
>>   maintain the calendar extension.
>
> Let me call it CalExt for short.
>
> Could this not continue similar to tier-2 platforms, where fixes are
> done by voluteers when necessary? The OS/2 platform still works like
> that. It's a bit "dangerous" but until now it works quite well
> (about 3 people contribute actively with a small (<10) community of
> active testers).

Yes, this could continue, *if* we had such a small, but active
community doing the maintenance. The fact, that we do not have it,
leads me to the conclusion that it is better to abandon CalExt.

> The one problem that got noticed is that although localizations
> exist, not all of them are up to date, or they are updated but
> not in the CVS tree. If I understood KaiRo correctly this is at
> least partly due to restrictions that you Calendar guys have for
> l10n checkins.

Yes, this is a problem. I wonder if we do not need a person, who is
the single point of contact for the l10n community. Perhaps I should
volunteer for that job, now that Mostafah lacks the time to do this
task.

>> - Actively maintaining the extension would mean a much more
>>   complex testing matrix for the calendar developers. Currently
>>   we have to test code checkins on our three major platforms
>>   (Windows, Linux, Mac) for Lightning and Sunbird. Testing the
>>   calendar extension would mean testing on all three platforms
>>   for all three products (Firefox, Thunderbird, Seamonkey). This
>>   means 9 additional combinations have to be tested.
>
> See below, I agree to reduce this to 3 combinations (CalExt on
> SeaMonkey, 4 if OS/2 is included), once I can get my Evolution
> calendar imported, I will be able to more actively test on Linux
> and OS/2 and do bug triaging.

I would really favour it, if Seamonkey could make significant strides
toward the new toolkit migration. Then work could be done on getting
Lightning to work on Seamonkey.

> Is there a testing framework for Sunbird that you follow regularly
> or at least before releases and that could be adopted for CalExt?

We have http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:Tests

>> - Lightning is the superior product in terms of functionality and
>>   is already available for Thunderbird. In the future it may be
>>   made available for Firefox. If Seamonkey finally manages to move
>>   to the new toolkit code, Lightning can be easily be ported to
>>   Seamonkey.
>
> When Lightning reaches a state when the release notes do not state
> that dataloss is to be expected _and_ it works as extension to a
> SeaMonkey release then it might be a time to totally abandon CalExt.

You might not be aware of it, but CalExt has exactly the same
dataloss bugs that Lightning has, due to their identical back-end.

>>   IMO it is better and much more credible to openly say that this
>>   is not gonna change, than to keep it in this state of limbo in
>>   the coming months and still have users who are waiting for an
>>   update, which may never appear.
>
> All users who previously used CalExt in the Mozilla 1.7.x suite
> deserve that we at least keep it updated until there is a real
> integrated alternative. Even in the small OS/2 community there
> was quite a demand for that.

I know that they deserve it. But this is Open-Source software. It only
works if someone works on it. And if such a person is not available,
the product dies. That's exactly the same as with the Mac Classic
support that was ended in 2002 for Mozilla products.

--
Simon Paquet
Sunbird/Calendar website maintainer
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Simon Paquet-2
In reply to this post by Joey Minta
Joey Minta wrote on 22. Mar 2006:

> At this stage, however, I don't think we're quite to a point where we
> can abandon it. There are two reasons: Firefox and SeaMonkey. I spent a
> few days at one point playing around with getting Lightning to work in
> Firefox in a clean, out-of-the-box way. Although I made some progress,
> there were still significant technical obstacles to making this work
> reliably. Until we're sure that we have a replacement calendar project
> for Firefox (and SeaMonkey?), or at least that we know what the
> replacement looks like and when it will arrive, I tend to think we
> should keep the calendar project in it's current state of limbo.

I agree with the Firefox part, if we decide that we want to build
a browser extension. I'm against that, given our resource situation,
as you well know.

I disagree that we should wait until we have a replacement project for
Seamonkey. The Seamonkey bug regarding the move to the new toolkit
(bug 255807) has basically stalled since its inception 19 months ago
and I see no sign from the Seamonkey developers that this will change
in the near future.

Right know I'm thinking that hell will freeze over earlier than
Seamonkey will move to the new toolkit. That's okay, it's the decision
of the Seamonkey developers where they allocate their resources, but
it is also our decision, whether we wait on them or not.

I say: We shouldn't wait any longer.

> Either way, it seems to me that a discussion on browser-calendaring
> (supplamental to the one on the Calendar blog) needs to precede any
> decision on the calendar xpi's status.

Since this is basically the "do we want a calendar extension on
Firefox"-question, I see no relation to the current topic, since this
extension will certainly not be CalExt but Lightning, if we decide to
go that route.

--
Simon Paquet
Sunbird/Calendar/Lightning website maintainer
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Matthias Bücker
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
Hi Simon,

to make things short:

I wouldn't bother about abandoning the calendar extension and I would
like to use lightning instead (you mentioned good reasons for this) just
now.
But unfortunately I am unable to import my calendars (from the calendar
extension) into lightning. As soon as this will be possible I definitely
will make the move!

Best Regards


Matthias

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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mailTo:MatthiasDOTCDOTBueckerATt-onlineDOTde
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Michiel van Leeuwen
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
Simon Paquet wrote:
> Okay, now it is my opinion that we should seriously consider to abandon
> the development of the calendar extension for Firefox, Thunderbird and
> Seamonkey and just concentrate on Lightning and Sunbird in the future.

What do you mean with abandoning the development? How is that different
from the current situation? No development is going on. No testing
resources are spend. No builds are made. Pretty much sounds like the
calendar extension is abandoned.
So, what do you want to change?

Michiel
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Michiel van Leeuwen
In reply to this post by Joey Minta
Joey Minta wrote:
> There are two reasons: Firefox and SeaMonkey.

Why do we have to have a calendaring solution for installation in those
apps? There are two other alternatives. I don't see the need for
spending time on firefox and seamonkey.
Especially not for SeaMonkey. There is hardly any movement there, and
supporting xpfe is getting quite a pain. Let's just stop even trying to
keep things working in there.

Michiel
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Joey Minta
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
Simon Paquet wrote:
>> Either way, it seems to me that a discussion on browser-calendaring
>> (supplamental to the one on the Calendar blog) needs to precede any
>> decision on the calendar xpi's status.
>
> Since this is basically the "do we want a calendar extension on
> Firefox"-question, I see no relation to the current topic, since this
> extension will certainly not be CalExt but Lightning, if we decide to
> go that route.
>
While I tend to agree that CalExt would not be the correct way to go,
I'm not 100% convinced of this fact.  I finally today sat down at a
window's box and played around with the experimental CalExt, however,
and that makes me more convinced that Lightning might be the correct
solution *for now*.  (It had the same issue, an undesired closure on the
composite calendar, that Lightning does.) The scary situation is that
the integration hooks planned to link Lightning and Thunderbird will
eventually make this solution impossible.  In that case, it may be that
the CalExt framework is a more reasonable solution to work from, rather
than Lightning, and having it 'killed' now would mean more work for
whomever took up that task later.
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Joey Minta
In reply to this post by Michiel van Leeuwen
Michiel van Leeuwen wrote:
> Joey Minta wrote:
>> There are two reasons: Firefox and SeaMonkey.
>
> Why do we have to have a calendaring solution for installation in those
> apps?
Because users seem to want it.  Or, at the very least, because there's a
potential that users may want it.  And because that potential exists, I
don't think we want to hurt our ability to meet that demand (by killing
calendar.xpi) until we're sure we know what we're planning to do about
it.  That's why I suggested that the browser-calendaring debate take
place first.

-Joey
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Joey Minta
In reply to this post by Michiel van Leeuwen
Michiel van Leeuwen wrote:
> What do you mean with abandoning the development? How is that different
> from the current situation?
We currently reject patches that blatantly break the calendar.xpi.  In
my mind, 'abandoning' would be the equivalent of no longer requiring
that patches even make a token effort at keeping calendar.xpi alive.
We'd probably also restructure the website to make it less prominent and
  try to phase out support questions/answers regarding it.

-Joey
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Simon Paquet-2
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
Peter Weilbacher wrote on 22. Mar 2006:

>> I disagree that we should wait until we have a replacement project
>> for Seamonkey. The Seamonkey bug regarding the move to the new
>> toolkit (bug 255807) has basically stalled since its inception 19
>> months ago and I see no sign from the Seamonkey developers that
>> this will change in the near future.
>
> Did you not read the SeaMonkey wiki page I pointed you to?

Yes, I did. And I see nothing that looks like an actual project plan
there. I see the tasks laid out, but I don't see any sort of milestones,
estimated completion dates, etc.

I also see no public discussion about the move to the new toolkit
anywhere in a public forum, be it the Seamonkey blog or the new
newsgroup.

If I missed something, I would be grateful if someone could point me
to the right place.

>> Right know I'm thinking that hell will freeze over earlier than
>> Seamonkey will move to the new toolkit. That's okay, it's the
>> decision of the Seamonkey developers where they allocate their
>> resources, but it is also our decision, whether we wait on them
>> or not.
>
> Is this really part of the civil discussion that you wanted to have?

Sorry for the little rant. But do you really disagree with me based
on the stuff that is out in the open?

--
Simon Paquet
Sunbird/Calendar website maintainer
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Simon Paquet-2
In reply to this post by Joey Minta
Peter Weilbacher wrote on 22. Mar 2006:

> Do you have any download statistics for the nightlies?

Not that I'm aware of, but this is a question that has been bugging
me for months. I should mail preed and ask him if it would be
possible to get some statistics on nightly and release downloads.

>>> Just yesterday mostafah checked in a small patch for me. :-)
>>> (OK, I agree, that isn't active maintenance.)
>>
>> Thanks for that, by the way!
>
> Well, it was a lot more fun than in many other parts of the Mozilla
> tree, where such small patches sit in review queues for up to several
> months, and then take again as long to get checked in. If I had more
> time and had found a way to be a more active user of CalExt I would
> definitely try to contribute more patches. Perhaps that happens in the
> next weeks when I get a bit more time.

Thanks, we appreciate your efforts very much.

--
Simon Paquet
Sunbird/Calendar website maintainer
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Simon Paquet-2
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
Peter Weilbacher wrote on 22. Mar 2006:

> Well, AFAIK Adrian was doing Windows builds every now and then,
> I heard about Linux builds from somebody in the German newsgroups
> (Hartmut?). I don't think that they stopped providing them. Of
> course, as none of them is advertised on the Calendar website, so
> very few people find them and and even fewer do some real testing.
>
> If there would be nightly (or at least weekly) builds or regular
> contributed builds that appear on
> <http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar/download.html> I am pretty
> sure that testers would be there. Is there any possibility that the
> machines that build one of the other Calendar nightlies could be set
> up so that they produce something like this for the three platforms?
> Any other suggestions?

What I could offer you as a short-term solution would be to put some
links on the CalExt download page that point to these unofficial
builds, if someone could provide me with a comprehensive list of
those sites and the assurance that the person doing these builds
won't stop doing it two weeks after I put the link on the download
page.

>> You might not be aware of it, but CalExt has exactly the same
>> dataloss bugs that Lightning has, due to their identical back-end.
>
> Thanks for pointing that out. That means that, currently, there is
> no Calendar based on Mozilla code in whatever form available that
> is considered stable for daily (or "production") use, right? Hmm,
> Sunbird 0.2?!

There is a CalExt xpi based on the code of Sunbird 0.2 and it is
probably more stable than Lightning 0.1, but as Joey already pointed
out, it has probably many more dataloss bugs than Lt 0.1 and I
wouldn't really trust my data to it if I were you.

--
Simon Paquet
Sunbird/Calendar website maintainer
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
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Re: Abandon the calendar extension

Simon Paquet-2
In reply to this post by Michiel van Leeuwen
Michiel van Leeuwen wrote on 22. Mar 2006:

>> Okay, now it is my opinion that we should seriously consider to
>> abandon the development of the calendar extension for Firefox,
>> Thunderbird and Seamonkey and just concentrate on Lightning and
>> Sunbird in the future.
>
> What do you mean with abandoning the development? How is that
> different from the current situation? No development is going on.
> No testing resources are spend. No builds are made. Pretty much
> sounds like the calendar extension is abandoned.
> So, what do you want to change?

Pretty much everything that Joey already said plus an official
announcement that we no longer support CalExt to make our users
aware of its status.

--
Simon Paquet
Sunbird/Calendar/Lightning website maintainer
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
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