[ANNOUNCE] String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

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[ANNOUNCE] String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Simon Paquet-2
Hi guys,

I just wanted to remind everyone, that the string freeze for
Thunderbird 3.1 beta2 and the Thunderbird 3.1 final release is
today, Tuesday April 20 at 23:59 PST[1].

I am planning to accept sign-ins up until Monday April 26th
pacific time[2] for the beta2 release. For the final release
the sign-in period will be a few weeks longer. I can't tell you
at the moment how long, but expect at least 4-5 more weeks.

Please use the new sign-in functionality in the l10n dashboard
to become part of these releases[3]. Currently you can only
sign-in for the 3.1 beta2 release. I'll open up the sign-in
possibility for the final release soon.

Cya
Simon


[1]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=4&day=20&year=2010&hour=23&min=59&sec=0&p1=256
[2]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=4&day=26&year=2010&hour=23&min=59&sec=0&p1=256
[3] https://l10n-stage-sj.mozilla.org/shipping/dashboard?av=tb3.1

--
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Thunderbird l10n blog:       http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com
Calendar website maintainer: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
Calendar developer blog:     http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Stefan Plewako
W dniu 20.04.2010 11:14, Simon Paquet pisze:

> Hi guys,
>
> I just wanted to remind everyone, that the string freeze for
> Thunderbird 3.1 beta2 and the Thunderbird 3.1 final release is
> today, Tuesday April 20 at 23:59 PST[1].
>
> I am planning to accept sign-ins up until Monday April 26th
> pacific time[2] for the beta2 release. For the final release
> the sign-in period will be a few weeks longer. I can't tell you
> at the moment how long, but expect at least 4-5 more weeks.
>
> Please use the new sign-in functionality in the l10n dashboard
> to become part of these releases[3]. Currently you can only
> sign-in for the 3.1 beta2 release. I'll open up the sign-in
> possibility for the final release soon.

It is really bad practice to inform about sign-in rules in a random
messages about sting freeze IMHO.

Additionally, whole b2 vs. final release thing looks quite messy for me.


Stef
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Simon Paquet-2
Stefan Plewako wrote on 20. Apr 2010:

>> I just wanted to remind everyone, that the string freeze for
>> Thunderbird 3.1 beta2 and the Thunderbird 3.1 final release is
>> today, Tuesday April 20 at 23:59 PST[1].
>>
>> I am planning to accept sign-ins up until Monday April 26th
>> pacific time[2] for the beta2 release. For the final release
>> the sign-in period will be a few weeks longer. I can't tell you
>> at the moment how long, but expect at least 4-5 more weeks.
>>
>> Please use the new sign-in functionality in the l10n dashboard
>> to become part of these releases[3]. Currently you can only
>> sign-in for the 3.1 beta2 release. I'll open up the sign-in
>> possibility for the final release soon.
>
> It is really bad practice to inform about sign-in rules in a
> random messages about sting freeze IMHO.

Why?

The new functionality has been around since mid-February and has
been successfully tested for various Firefox as well as for the
previous Thunderbird 3.1 beta release (beta 1).

In addition, this functionality was created because many localizers
requested such a feature. Could you please elaborate on what you
consider "bad practice" in particular?

> Additionally, whole b2 vs. final release thing looks quite
> messy for me.

Again, why?

It is common practice that the last beta release is also the string
freeze for the final release. This was done for many releases already
and also by localizer request, because not all locales can or want to
be part of every single pre-release (alphas, betas).

Again, can you please elaborate on what you find "messy" here?

Thanks
Simon

--
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Thunderbird l10n blog:       http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Stefan Plewako
W dniu 20.04.2010 14:40, Simon Paquet pisze:

> Stefan Plewako wrote on 20. Apr 2010:
>
>>> I just wanted to remind everyone, that the string freeze for
>>> Thunderbird 3.1 beta2 and the Thunderbird 3.1 final release is
>>> today, Tuesday April 20 at 23:59 PST[1].
>>>
>>> I am planning to accept sign-ins up until Monday April 26th
>>> pacific time[2] for the beta2 release. For the final release
>>> the sign-in period will be a few weeks longer. I can't tell you
>>> at the moment how long, but expect at least 4-5 more weeks.
>>>
>>> Please use the new sign-in functionality in the l10n dashboard
>>> to become part of these releases[3]. Currently you can only
>>> sign-in for the 3.1 beta2 release. I'll open up the sign-in
>>> possibility for the final release soon.
>>
>> It is really bad practice to inform about sign-in rules in a random
>> messages about sting freeze IMHO.
>
> Why?
>
> The new functionality has been around since mid-February and has
> been successfully tested for various Firefox as well as for the
> previous Thunderbird 3.1 beta release (beta 1).
>
> In addition, this functionality was created because many localizers
> requested such a feature. Could you please elaborate on what you
> consider "bad practice" in particular?

I'm complaining about the release announcement here, not about the
dashboard itself.

I was reported that it's unintuitive to watch for sign-in deadline in a
random messages with subjects like "String freeze starts today". There
was no Polish tb3.1b1 release partially because of that and that's way
I'm complaining.

>> Additionally, whole b2 vs. final release thing looks quite messy for me.
>
> Again, why?
>
> It is common practice that the last beta release is also the string
> freeze for the final release. This was done for many releases already
> and also by localizer request, because not all locales can or want to
> be part of every single pre-release (alphas, betas).
>
> Again, can you please elaborate on what you find "messy" here?

I don't remember Thunderbird release without string change between last
beta and rc but I would need to check this to be sure. Maybe I'm missing
sth largely also but I didn't heard anything about such decisions - they
sound to me like your assumptions…

Additionally the reasoning here seems pretty strange to me. If some
locale don't want to be part of every pre-release because limited
resources it is more likely that they will jump into last beta/rc then
alpha so, this should not apply here - right?

This way collecting feedback is also more complicated (I have no idea
when our users should start testing).


Stef
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Simon Paquet-2
Stefan Plewako wrote on 20. Apr 2010:

>>> It is really bad practice to inform about sign-in rules in a
>>> random messages about sting freeze IMHO.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> The new functionality has been around since mid-February and has
>> been successfully tested for various Firefox as well as for the
>> previous Thunderbird 3.1 beta release (beta 1).
>>
>> In addition, this functionality was created because many localizers
>> requested such a feature. Could you please elaborate on what you
>> consider "bad practice" in particular?
>
> I'm complaining about the release announcement here, not about the
> dashboard itself.

That is new. I haven't heard any concerns about this before. I've
posted all release announcements since the early 3.0 alphas to mdl
and to the Thunderbird l10n blog (the corresponding post for this
thread is still outstanding) and never heard someone complain here
or on the various summits that I attended.

> I was reported that it's unintuitive to watch for sign-in deadline
> in a random messages with subjects like "String freeze starts
> today". There was no Polish tb3.1b1 release partially because of
> that and that's way I'm complaining.

1. If that was an issue for you with the b1 release, then why are
   you telling me this two months later, when I can't do anything
   about it for beta2 anymore? Please tell me such things early on
   so that I can think of changes to make it easier for you.
2. The feedback from the l10n community to me was that I should make
   important posts (like a string freeze announcement) easily
   identifiable, e.g. by adding a "[ANNOUNCE]" tag to the post.
3. There is also the TB l10n blog (see my signature below), which
   just contains the most important announcements and can easily be
   watched with an RSS reader.

>>> Additionally, whole b2 vs. final release thing looks quite messy
>>> for me.
>>
>> Again, why?
>>
>> It is common practice that the last beta release is also the
>> string freeze for the final release. This was done for many
>> releases already and also by localizer request, because not all
>> locales can or want to be part of every single pre-release
>> (alphas, betas).
>>
>> Again, can you please elaborate on what you find "messy" here?
>
> I don't remember Thunderbird release without string change between
> last beta and rc but I would need to check this to be sure. Maybe
> I'm missing sth largely also but I didn't heard anything about
> such decisions - they sound to me like your assumptions…

We had already attempted this for the Thunderbird 3.0 release, but
had missed this by 20 days. The 3.0 beta 4 string freeze was on
Sep 9 2009 and the 3.0 RC string freeze was on Sep 29 2009.

One thing that we took away from that was that we need to get better
with this and follow the lead of Firefox here to get more l10n
feedback earlier.

> Additionally the reasoning here seems pretty strange to me. If
> some locale don't want to be part of every pre-release because
> limited resources it is more likely that they will jump into last
> beta/rc then alpha so, this should not apply here - right?

We wanted to give these teams at least one possibility to give us
feedback with regards to localization quality and localizability.

> This way collecting feedback is also more complicated (I have no
> idea when our users should start testing).

General rule: As early as possible. That maximises the chance that
the issues you or your users find will get fixed in time for the
final release.

Cya
Simon

--
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Thunderbird l10n blog:       http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com
Calendar website maintainer: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Stefan Plewako
W dniu 20.04.2010 16:25, Simon Paquet pisze:
> That is new. I haven't heard any concerns about this before. I've
> posted all release announcements since the early 3.0 alphas to mdl
> and to the Thunderbird l10n blog (the corresponding post for this
> thread is still outstanding) and never heard someone complain here
> or on the various summits that I attended.

The "[ANNOUNCE]" prefix and "opt-in" keyword in the topic are the two
things that I'm missing most.

If Thunderbird l10n blog isn't meant to be replacement for this
newsgroup then it's not a solution for me.

> 1. If that was an issue for you with the b1 release, then why are
> you telling me this two months later, when I can't do anything
> about it for beta2 anymore? Please tell me such things early on
> so that I can think of changes to make it easier for you.

Mainly because it is a fresh thing for me too, one-two weeks old max.

> 2. The feedback from the l10n community to me was that I should make
> important posts (like a string freeze announcement) easily
> identifiable, e.g. by adding a "[ANNOUNCE]" tag to the post.

Like tb3.1b1 post? ;-)

> 3. There is also the TB l10n blog (see my signature below), which
> just contains the most important announcements and can easily be
> watched with an RSS reader.

I will repeat myself - if it isn't replacement (and I don't suggest that
it should) then it can't always help.

> We had already attempted this for the Thunderbird 3.0 release, but
> had missed this by 20 days. The 3.0 beta 4 string freeze was on
> Sep 9 2009 and the 3.0 RC string freeze was on Sep 29 2009.
>
> One thing that we took away from that was that we need to get better
> with this and follow the lead of Firefox here to get more l10n
> feedback earlier.
>
>> Additionally the reasoning here seems pretty strange to me. If some
>> locale don't want to be part of every pre-release because limited
>> resources it is more likely that they will jump into last beta/rc then
>> alpha so, this should not apply here - right?
>
> We wanted to give these teams at least one possibility to give us
> feedback with regards to localization quality and localizability.

The problem with such approach is that I still don't know if strings
will change. I don't know also, how much the underling technology that
these strings describe will change before final release… for me this
sounds like a regression in l10n process rather then improvement.

> General rule: As early as possible. That maximises the chance that
> the issues you or your users find will get fixed in time for the
> final release.

Not always true. If testers community is pretty small then there is big
chance that you can collect feedback only once "per big release"…


Stef
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Mark Banner-2
In reply to this post by Stefan Plewako
On 20/04/2010 14:43, Stefan Plewako wrote:

> W dniu 20.04.2010 14:40, Simon Paquet pisze:
>> Stefan Plewako wrote on 20. Apr 2010:
>>> Additionally, whole b2 vs. final release thing looks quite messy for me.
>>
>> Again, why?
>>
>> It is common practice that the last beta release is also the string
>> freeze for the final release. This was done for many releases already
>> and also by localizer request, because not all locales can or want to
>> be part of every single pre-release (alphas, betas).
>>
>> Again, can you please elaborate on what you find "messy" here?
>
> I don't remember Thunderbird release without string change between last
> beta and rc but I would need to check this to be sure. Maybe I'm missing
> sth largely also but I didn't heard anything about such decisions - they
> sound to me like your assumptions…

Simon is one of the Thunderbird drivers. We keep him up to date with our
plans. 3.1b2 also being the string and feature freeze for the final
release has been our 3.1 plans for quite a while now (and as Simon said,
that change came out of responses that we got from before 3.0 was released).

Thunderbird 3.0 is the only previous release that counts, and we went
into the final 3.0 beta knowing we needed some more string changes but
unfortunately were too pushed for time.

For Thunderbird 3.1 we're confident that we're going to have all the
string and feature changes complete. So much so, we're saying yes this
is string freeze for final - we're not going to change any more strings
unless absolutely necessary which would be via the late-l10n process
that we will avoid at all costs.

> Additionally the reasoning here seems pretty strange to me. If some
> locale don't want to be part of every pre-release because limited
> resources it is more likely that they will jump into last beta/rc then
> alpha so, this should not apply here - right?

I don't see how this affects whether or not we string freeze at the last
beta or after it?

Standard8
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Re: String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

marsf
In reply to this post by Stefan Plewako
On 4月21日, 午前12:26, Stefan Plewako <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The problem with such approach is that I still don't know if strings
> will change. I don't know also, how much the underling technology that
> these strings describe will change before final release… for me this
> sounds like a regression in l10n process rather then improvement.

I think that you should follow the "thunderbird [at]
localization.bugs" at Bugzilla. This is official tracking account for
Thunderbird l10n related bugs.
http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com/2009/07/new-possibility-to-get-l10n-feedback.html

If you want to see the souce code changes, you can see them at hg
repos.
http://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/file/tip/mail/locales/en-US


marsf
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Re: String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Stefan Plewako
W dniu 21.04.2010 09:26, marsf pisze:

> On 4月21日, 午前12:26, Stefan Plewako<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> The problem with such approach is that I still don't know if strings
>> will change. I don't know also, how much the underling technology that
>> these strings describe will change before final release… for me this
>> sounds like a regression in l10n process rather then improvement.
>
> I think that you should follow the "thunderbird [at]
> localization.bugs" at Bugzilla. This is official tracking account for
> Thunderbird l10n related bugs.
> http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com/2009/07/new-possibility-to-get-l10n-feedback.html
>
> If you want to see the souce code changes, you can see them at hg
> repos.
> http://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/file/tip/mail/locales/en-US

I'm following it but that is not the case/my point.

I should not be forced to track newsgroup *and* blog *and* read bugmails
*and* track hg *and* paste every new idea here, just to know when and
how next version will be released and what I need to do to provide good
quality localization for it.


Regards,
Stef
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Re: String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Axel Hecht
On 21.04.10 09:44, Stefan Plewako wrote:

> W dniu 21.04.2010 09:26, marsf pisze:
>> On 4月21日, 午前12:26, Stefan Plewako<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> The problem with such approach is that I still don't know if strings
>>> will change. I don't know also, how much the underling technology that
>>> these strings describe will change before final release… for me this
>>> sounds like a regression in l10n process rather then improvement.
>>
>> I think that you should follow the "thunderbird [at]
>> localization.bugs" at Bugzilla. This is official tracking account for
>> Thunderbird l10n related bugs.
>> http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com/2009/07/new-possibility-to-get-l10n-feedback.html
>>
>>
>> If you want to see the souce code changes, you can see them at hg
>> repos.
>> http://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/file/tip/mail/locales/en-US
>
> I'm following it but that is not the case/my point.
>
> I should not be forced to track newsgroup *and* blog *and* read bugmails
> *and* track hg *and* paste every new idea here, just to know when and
> how next version will be released and what I need to do to provide good
> quality localization for it.
>

So far you have often mentioned things you don't want to do, I'm not
sure I understood what you do want to do.

Axel
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Re: String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Stefan Plewako
W dniu 21.04.2010 10:43, Axel Hecht pisze:
> So far you have often mentioned things you don't want to do, I'm not
> sure I understood what you do want to do.

I would like to have one way, one place of getting complete info set
needed to localize product. If there are other things in that source,
these informations should be emphasized by strict title/topic/header
formatting. Assume that I don't read any other source of information and
don't force me to do so (or interact in other form) just to find
directly related info. Don't speculate in such posts and be clear about
things.

Probably some more but these are most important things that I would like
to see and neither of them is fully and strictly respected (at least for
tb).


Stef

P.S. That is only my private point of view, partially based on feedback
that I have received and my only intention is to explain that some
things may be improved but not to judge by any mean.
I don't like sth != It's bad. (even if it sounds I believe so)
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Adrian Kalla
In reply to this post by Simon Paquet-2
Użytkownik Simon Paquet napisał:
> That is new. I haven't heard any concerns about this before. I've
> posted all release announcements since the early 3.0 alphas to mdl
> and to the Thunderbird l10n blog (the corresponding post for this
> thread is still outstanding) and never heard someone complain here
> or on the various summits that I attended.
>
> 2. The feedback from the l10n community to me was that I should make
> important posts (like a string freeze announcement) easily
> identifiable, e.g. by adding a "[ANNOUNCE]" tag to the post.

Simon, what was the problem with this announcement and the 3.1b1
announcement is, that no one expects to find this information:

"I am planning to accept sign-ins up until Monday April 26th
pacific time[2] for the beta2 release. For the final release
the sign-in period will be a few weeks longer. I can't tell you
at the moment how long, but expect at least 4-5 more weeks. "

in a message called "[ANNOUNCE] String freeze (...)".

I, and probably everyone else in our Polish team (we spoke about this
issue at our last Polish meeting in Cracow a week ago), expects to find
such information in topics called like:

"[ANNOUNCE] Sign-in deadline for Thunderbird 3.1 beta2 (...)"

and when the deadline for the final release will be known a NEW thread:

"[ANNOUNCE] Sign-in deadline for Thunderbird 3.1 FINAL (...)"


That's why we missed the 3.1b1 deadline - because NO ONE expected to
find such important information like a sign-in deadline in such an
relatively unimportant (from a localizer point of view!) message like
"[ANNOUNCE] String freeze (...)".

Best
Adrian
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Simon Paquet-2
Adrian Kalla wrote on 21. Apr 2010:

> Simon, what was the problem with this announcement and the 3.1b1
> announcement is, that no one expects to find this information:
>
> "I am planning to accept sign-ins up until Monday April 26th
> pacific time[2] for the beta2 release. For the final release
> the sign-in period will be a few weeks longer. I can't tell you
> at the moment how long, but expect at least 4-5 more weeks. "
>
> in a message called "[ANNOUNCE] String freeze (...)".
>
> I, and probably everyone else in our Polish team (we spoke about
> this issue at our last Polish meeting in Cracow a week ago),
> expects to find such information in topics called like:
>
> "[ANNOUNCE] Sign-in deadline for Thunderbird 3.1 beta2 (...)"
>
> and when the deadline for the final release will be known a NEW thread:
>
> "[ANNOUNCE] Sign-in deadline for Thunderbird 3.1 FINAL (...)"
>
> That's why we missed the 3.1b1 deadline - because NO ONE expected
> to find such important information like a sign-in deadline in such
> an relatively unimportant (from a localizer point of view!) message
> like "[ANNOUNCE] String freeze (...)".

Thanks Adrian, that is indeed helpful information for me. I'll make
sure to do better in the future.

Simon

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Thunderbird l10n blog:       http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com
Calendar website maintainer: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
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Re: String freeze for Thunderbird 3.1 (final release) is today

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Adrian Kalla
On 21.04.10 11:54, Adrian Kalla wrote:

> Użytkownik Simon Paquet napisał:
>> That is new. I haven't heard any concerns about this before. I've
>> posted all release announcements since the early 3.0 alphas to mdl
>> and to the Thunderbird l10n blog (the corresponding post for this
>> thread is still outstanding) and never heard someone complain here
>> or on the various summits that I attended.
>>
>> 2. The feedback from the l10n community to me was that I should make
>> important posts (like a string freeze announcement) easily
>> identifiable, e.g. by adding a "[ANNOUNCE]" tag to the post.
>
> Simon, what was the problem with this announcement and the 3.1b1
> announcement is, that no one expects to find this information:
>
> "I am planning to accept sign-ins up until Monday April 26th
> pacific time[2] for the beta2 release. For the final release
> the sign-in period will be a few weeks longer. I can't tell you
> at the moment how long, but expect at least 4-5 more weeks. "
>
> in a message called "[ANNOUNCE] String freeze (...)".
>
> I, and probably everyone else in our Polish team (we spoke about this
> issue at our last Polish meeting in Cracow a week ago), expects to find
> such information in topics called like:
>
> "[ANNOUNCE] Sign-in deadline for Thunderbird 3.1 beta2 (...)"
>
> and when the deadline for the final release will be known a NEW thread:
>
> "[ANNOUNCE] Sign-in deadline for Thunderbird 3.1 FINAL (...)"
>
>
> That's why we missed the 3.1b1 deadline - because NO ONE expected to
> find such important information like a sign-in deadline in such an
> relatively unimportant (from a localizer point of view!) message like
> "[ANNOUNCE] String freeze (...)".
>


Generally, if there's a new thread with your appname and [ANNOUNCE],
read it, whatever the subject is. That's why we use that tag. Really,
why would we do an [ANNOUNCE] post if we think that it's fine for the
localizers to just skip it.

There seems some disconnect between what we do and what people think we
do, I'll open a new thread on that, though.

Axel
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