A way forward?

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Re: A way forward?

squaredancer
On 08.12.2007 14:45, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Christopher
Jahn to generate the following:? :

> squaredancer <[hidden email]> wrote in news:Dfqdncbs-
> [hidden email]:
>
>  
>>>> newsgroups don't want it.  But the reasoning to actually say
>>>> such things is indeed a case-by-case basis.
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>> We already do that; I use Xnews, so HTML news posting give me
>>>      
> a
>  
>>> fit.  I usually "break" the header and reply to the poster
>>> showing what they're REALLY putting on the group, and that
>>> usually ends with a successfull resolution.
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>> Christopher - Justin says MAIL - you say NEWSGROUPS.
>>    
>
> Read it again.
>
>  
I just did:

Just to be clear, we are still talking "...in e-mail..." right?  (Justin)
showing what they're REALLY putting on the group  (your post above)

reg
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Re: A way forward?

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by squaredancer
On 08.12.2007 07:52, squaredancer wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 08.12.2007 14:33, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
> generate the following:? :
>> On 08.12.2007 05:53, Gervase Markham wrote:
>>
>>  --- Original Message ---
>>
>>  
>>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>    
>>>> What would the purpose of the new newsgroup be? My immediate concern is
>>>> that it would segregate support traffic.
>>>>      
>>> This is an important concern.
>>>
>>> We need to nail this down; I thought I knew what n.t.mm and now m.t.mm
>>> did, but now more people are coming into the conversation saying
>>> different things and I'm not so sure any more.
>>>
>>> Let me try this from the top, starting from first principles:
>>>
>>> - Any group in the mozilla.support hierarchy is intended to be used for
>>> supporting end-users in achieving things with Mozilla products. It
>>> should strongly discourage off-topic messages.
>>>
>>> - Any group in the mozilla.test hierarchy is intended to be used for
>>> testing purposes. It is therefore envisaged that such groups would not
>>> have a "community" or "readers" as such - people post messages to test
>>> particular features or problems, see if things work, and then leave.
>>>
>>> - Any group in the mozilla.general hierarchy is for general, usually
>>> non-Mozilla-project related and probably high-traffic, discussion. There
>>> is no such thing as off-topic. However, people should never be required
>>> to join one of these groups in order to get support, or to do a test, or
>>> to achieve any other purpose.
>>>
>>> Now, if the current m.t.mm group is used for both testing and support
>>> (is it?), then that's a problem. It's a problem because it's being used
>>> for support yet it's not in mozilla.support; it's a problem because it's
>>> being used for testing yet people are having to come in there for
>>> support and being bombarded with test messages.
>>>
>>> So does this mean we need a mozilla.support.multimedia (although it
>>> would need another name; that one's too ambiguous) for helping people
>>> with their multimedia message posting problems (who _has_ those,
>>> anyway?) as well as a test group and a discussion group?
>>>
>>> Gerv
>>>    
>>
>> My vote is the last paragraph. You need a MM support/testing venue as
>> well as a MM discussion venue.
>>
>> MTMM is where the user comes to test as well as some short ONtopic
>> discussion of the test. If the peer support user wishes to enhance the
>> discussion further then he/she can direct the user to MGMM where
>> everyone can participate therefore not limiting the discussion in MTMM.
>> This scenario would be most beneficiail not only to the user posting the
>> test but also to the myriad of anonymous readers that can also benefit
>> from the discussion(s). You only need to create the MGMM, lay down the
>> rules for both groups, appoint a moderator and off we go ... again. It's
>> a win-win situation both for Mozilla and the user needing support. It's
>> also a win situation for the current community. Everybody wins, nobody
>> loses.
>>
>>
>>  
>
> .... as long as we don't get dumped all those posts:
>
> "I attached my Mom 5 pics - and they don't show"
> "Make sure you *compose and send* in HTML format"
>
> IMO, *that* kind of support belongs right where it is now!
>
> reg

My theory of supporting the user is if you know the answer then give it
followed by, in the future your question may best be answered in xxxxxxx.xxx



--
Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
Marketing,Staff and Forums Consultant
Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: A way forward?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by squaredancer
squaredancer wrote:

> On 08.12.2007 14:45, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Christopher
> Jahn to generate the following:? :
>> squaredancer <[hidden email]> wrote in news:Dfqdncbs-
>> [hidden email]:
>>
>>  
>>>>> newsgroups don't want it.  But the reasoning to actually say
>>>>> such things is indeed a case-by-case basis.            
>>>> We already do that; I use Xnews, so HTML news posting give me      
>> a  
>>>> fit.  I usually "break" the header and reply to the poster showing
>>>> what they're REALLY putting on the group, and that usually ends with
>>>> a successfull resolution.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>> Christopher - Justin says MAIL - you say NEWSGROUPS.
>>>    
>>
>> Read it again.
>>
>>  
> I just did:
>
> Just to be clear, we are still talking "...in e-mail..." right?  (Justin)
> showing what they're REALLY putting on the group  (your post above)
>

I'll say, that I did mean "e-mail _or_ newsgroup" and it does seem Chris
took it that way, so all is good.  [the differences are typically subtle
enough] (Though, admitedly after your post, my wording could have been
better.)

--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
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Re: A way forward?

Michael-369
In reply to this post by squaredancer
Michael at Armadilloweb.com pondered over this reply On 12/8/2007 5:19 AM

> On 08.12.2007 06:03, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Michael to
> generate the following:? :
>> Michael at Armadilloweb.com pondered over this reply On 12/7/2007 6:38 PM
>>
>>  
>>> On 12/7/07 7:26 PM, _JoeS_ spoke thusly:
>>>    
>>>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>>      
>>>>> How is it different from support groups, dev.tech groups, QA groups,
>>>>> and web-developer groups? I would just like a more defined
>>>>> explanation, so we know where to draw the line of hat posts belong where.
>>>>>        
>>>> Practically all support request about html css or embedding sounds or
>>>> images are much better served
>>>> in a venue where examples can see actually seen. A text only answer can
>>>> be very cumbersome, and as
>>>> far as actual composition goes, virtually impossible.
>>>> Very simple to ask the poster to try something, then analyze the attempt.
>>>> Do you remember the photographer that was trying to use a template to
>>>> display his product ?
>>>> He was convinced it would not work in the Geckos. Members of the
>>>> multimedia community fixed his problem very quickly.
>>>>      
>>> It sounds to me like a replacement for the web-developer newsgroup.
>>> P.S. HTML and CSS are not multimedia. :-)
>>>
>>>    
>> If you have ever composed an e-mail message with HTML the Composer part
>> of Gecko inserts HTML coding and CSS styling attributes.
>> Knowing how these two work together and how to modify them can greatly
>> enhance a multi-media presentation.
>>
>> Michael
>>  
>
> Michael - you are trying to tell a brick wall how to eat a sandwich -
> it's a useless effort!
>
> reg

Reg,

Like any brick wall built with bricks and mortar if you keep chipping
away at the mortar the whole house will ball into rubble.

Michael
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Re: A way forward?

Michael-369
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Michael at Armadilloweb.com pondered over this reply On 12/8/2007 9:13 AM

> squaredancer wrote:
>> On 08.12.2007 14:45, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Christopher
>> Jahn to generate the following:? :
>>> squaredancer <[hidden email]> wrote in news:Dfqdncbs-
>>> [hidden email]:
>>>
>>>  
>>>>>> newsgroups don't want it.  But the reasoning to actually say
>>>>>> such things is indeed a case-by-case basis.            
>>>>> We already do that; I use Xnews, so HTML news posting give me      
>>> a  
>>>>> fit.  I usually "break" the header and reply to the poster showing
>>>>> what they're REALLY putting on the group, and that usually ends with
>>>>> a successfull resolution.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>        
>>>> Christopher - Justin says MAIL - you say NEWSGROUPS.
>>>>    
>>> Read it again.
>>>
>>>  
>> I just did:
>>
>> Just to be clear, we are still talking "...in e-mail..." right?  (Justin)
>> showing what they're REALLY putting on the group  (your post above)
>>
>
> I'll say, that I did mean "e-mail _or_ newsgroup" and it does seem Chris
> took it that way, so all is good.  [the differences are typically subtle
> enough] (Though, admitedly after your post, my wording could have been
> better.)
>

Justin,

I agree with the subtle differences between mail and newsgroup messages,
for my use the differences are so subtle it is hard to tell the
difference.  I use the same tools in e-mail as I do for a newsgroup post
to read and compose messages.  That is the very reason we need a news
group that will both support the end user in resolving problems and the
same group for testing the content use in Mozilla products.

Michael
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Re: A way forward?

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Jay Garcia wrote:

> On 08.12.2007 05:53, Gervase Markham wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>> What would the purpose of the new newsgroup be? My immediate concern is
>>> that it would segregate support traffic.
>> This is an important concern.
>>
>> We need to nail this down; I thought I knew what n.t.mm and now m.t.mm
>> did, but now more people are coming into the conversation saying
>> different things and I'm not so sure any more.
>>
>> Let me try this from the top, starting from first principles:
>>
>> - Any group in the mozilla.support hierarchy is intended to be used for
>> supporting end-users in achieving things with Mozilla products. It
>> should strongly discourage off-topic messages.
>>
>> - Any group in the mozilla.test hierarchy is intended to be used for
>> testing purposes. It is therefore envisaged that such groups would not
>> have a "community" or "readers" as such - people post messages to test
>> particular features or problems, see if things work, and then leave.
>>
>> - Any group in the mozilla.general hierarchy is for general, usually
>> non-Mozilla-project related and probably high-traffic, discussion. There
>> is no such thing as off-topic. However, people should never be required
>> to join one of these groups in order to get support, or to do a test, or
>> to achieve any other purpose.
>>
>> Now, if the current m.t.mm group is used for both testing and support
>> (is it?), then that's a problem. It's a problem because it's being used
>> for support yet it's not in mozilla.support; it's a problem because it's
>> being used for testing yet people are having to come in there for
>> support and being bombarded with test messages.
>>
>> So does this mean we need a mozilla.support.multimedia (although it
>> would need another name; that one's too ambiguous) for helping people
>> with their multimedia message posting problems (who _has_ those,
>> anyway?) as well as a test group and a discussion group?
>>
>> Gerv
>
> My vote is the last paragraph. You need a MM support/testing venue as
> well as a MM discussion venue.
>
> MTMM is where the user comes to test as well as some short ONtopic
> discussion of the test. If the peer support user wishes to enhance the
> discussion further then he/she can direct the user to MGMM where
> everyone can participate therefore not limiting the discussion in MTMM.

thats going to get confusing.

"I want to know how to insert youtube into my email" --
which group do I go to?

"How does this look?" -- which group do I go to?

"here's a pic of my house" -- which group do I go to?

--
*IMPORTANT*: Sorry folks, but I cannot provide email help!!!!

Warning: Private emails to me may become public

Posting of this message may get me banned from the Mozilla
Newsgroups, as its not "contributing to the developement of
the Mozilla Project"

Peter Potamus & His Magic Flying Balloon:
http://www.toonopedia.com/potamus.htm
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Re: A way forward?

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
Gervase Markham wrote:

> Chris Ilias wrote:
>> What would the purpose of the new newsgroup be? My immediate concern is
>> that it would segregate support traffic.
>
> This is an important concern.
>
> We need to nail this down; I thought I knew what n.t.mm and now m.t.mm
> did, but now more people are coming into the conversation saying
> different things and I'm not so sure any more.
>
> Let me try this from the top, starting from first principles:
>
> - Any group in the mozilla.support hierarchy is intended to be used for
> supporting end-users in achieving things with Mozilla products. It
> should strongly discourage off-topic messages.

"when I look at a youtube video that came in my email I
don't hear the sound?" -- thats mozilla.support.*

"how do I insert a youtube video into my email?" -- thats
thats the .test group

> - Any group in the mozilla.test hierarchy is intended to be used for
> testing purposes. It is therefore envisaged that such groups would not
> have a "community" or "readers" as such - people post messages to test
> particular features or problems, see if things work, and then leave.

sometimes

> - Any group in the mozilla.general hierarchy is for general, usually
> non-Mozilla-project related and probably high-traffic, discussion. There
> is no such thing as off-topic. However, people should never be required
> to join one of these groups in order to get support, or to do a test, or
> to achieve any other purpose.

while in the mozilla.test.general.multimedia [whatever its
called] group and I see a great vid or pic, I might say:
"Hey, I was there during the summer, it was a great place,
and a conversation starts, so what! Thats what currently
happens in the MTMM group

> Now, if the current m.t.mm group is used for both testing and support
> (is it?), then that's a problem.

in the time that I've been there, the only questions I've
asked are: How do I get my message scrolling? How do I
insert a Stardate clock? How do I get snow flakes? How to I
get a Christmas Clock?  How do I insert music?

I also have seen: Here's some pics of the recent space
exploration.  Here's some pics of my recent trip to the
Antarctica.  What do you guys think of my photoshop stuff on
bears?  And in the mean time, people are replying to those
posts, saying how great they are, and inserting little
comical images, pics, smilies, etc.  If they do, so what!
Thats what that "Community is all about."  I suggest you
view the last serveral months worth and you'll start to find
out.

so what.  Let them post.

  It's a problem because it's being used
> for support yet it's not in mozilla.support; it's a problem because it's
> being used for testing yet people are having to come in there for
> support and being bombarded with test messages.

thats the according to Jay, Lee and others have been saying
what has happened in the NTMM group.  And they've said, so what.

>
> So does this mean we need a mozilla.support.multimedia (although it
> would need another name; that one's too ambiguous) for helping people
> with their multimedia message posting problems (who _has_ those,
> anyway?) as well as a test group and a discussion group?

I think you're thinking too much.  Just leave it as is --
that is my opinion.

--
*IMPORTANT*: Sorry folks, but I cannot provide email help!!!!

Warning: Private emails to me may become public

Posting of this message may get me banned from the Mozilla
Newsgroups, as its not "contributing to the developement of
the Mozilla Project"

Peter Potamus & His Magic Flying Balloon:
http://www.toonopedia.com/potamus.htm
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Re: A way forward?

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
Gervase Markham wrote:

> Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
>> You and Chris keep remarking about giganews rules, but I have as yet
>> been seen any type of reference on where to find them.  So, instead of
>> saying there are rules, how about posting those "giganews rules"
>> somewhere so everybody can read them and try to understand them?
>
> These ones, for example:
> http://www.giganews.com/legal/aup.html
>
> Gerv
>

that is on the giganews servers.  Not on Mozilla.  Don't you
think there should be something posted on Mozila somewhere
easy to find? Because, why would I go looking on the giga
servers for something about Mozilla?  I would look on
Mozilla servers for something about giga.  After all, its a
Mozilla based problem, not giga.

--
*IMPORTANT*: Sorry folks, but I cannot provide email help!!!!

Warning: Private emails to me may become public

Posting of this message may get me banned from the Mozilla
Newsgroups, as its not "contributing to the developement of
the Mozilla Project"

Peter Potamus & His Magic Flying Balloon:
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Re: A way forward?

Christopher Jahn
In reply to this post by squaredancer
squaredancer <[hidden email]> wrote in
news:[hidden email]:

> On 08.12.2007 14:45, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused
> Christopher Jahn to generate the following:? :
>> squaredancer <[hidden email]> wrote in
>> news:Dfqdncbs- [hidden email]:
>>
>>  
>>>>> newsgroups don't want it.  But the reasoning to actually
>>>>> say such things is indeed a case-by-case basis.
>>>>>    
>>>>>        
>>>> We already do that; I use Xnews, so HTML news posting give
>>>> me
>>>>      
>> a
>>  
>>>> fit.  I usually "break" the header and reply to the poster
>>>> showing what they're REALLY putting on the group, and that
>>>> usually ends with a successfull resolution.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>      
>>> Christopher - Justin says MAIL - you say NEWSGROUPS.
>>>    
>>
>> Read it again.
>>
>>  
> I just did:
>
> Just to be clear, we are still talking "...in e-mail..."
> right?  

You've missed this entire paragraphy twice:
"But to elaborate, I'd say care should be taken to also let the
user know why it is not always welcome for HTML mail; why sending
in text-only as well is helpful, and _why many newsgroups_ don't
want it."




--
}:-)       Christopher Jahn
{:-(       http://manormaniac.blogspot.com/

"There are trivial truths & there are great truths. The opposite
of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great
truth is also true."  -Neils Bohr
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Re: A way forward?

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Michael-369
On 08.12.2007 16:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Michael to
generate the following:? :

> Michael at Armadilloweb.com pondered over this reply On 12/8/2007 5:19 AM
>
>  
>> On 08.12.2007 06:03, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Michael to
>> generate the following:? :
>>    
>>> Michael at Armadilloweb.com pondered over this reply On 12/7/2007 6:38 PM
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> On 12/7/07 7:26 PM, _JoeS_ spoke thusly:
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>>>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>>>> How is it different from support groups, dev.tech groups, QA groups,
>>>>>> and web-developer groups? I would just like a more defined
>>>>>> explanation, so we know where to draw the line of hat posts belong where.
>>>>>>        
>>>>>>            
>>>>> Practically all support request about html css or embedding sounds or
>>>>> images are much better served
>>>>> in a venue where examples can see actually seen. A text only answer can
>>>>> be very cumbersome, and as
>>>>> far as actual composition goes, virtually impossible.
>>>>> Very simple to ask the poster to try something, then analyze the attempt.
>>>>> Do you remember the photographer that was trying to use a template to
>>>>> display his product ?
>>>>> He was convinced it would not work in the Geckos. Members of the
>>>>> multimedia community fixed his problem very quickly.
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>> It sounds to me like a replacement for the web-developer newsgroup.
>>>> P.S. HTML and CSS are not multimedia. :-)
>>>>
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>> If you have ever composed an e-mail message with HTML the Composer part
>>> of Gecko inserts HTML coding and CSS styling attributes.
>>> Knowing how these two work together and how to modify them can greatly
>>> enhance a multi-media presentation.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>  
>>>      
>> Michael - you are trying to tell a brick wall how to eat a sandwich -
>> it's a useless effort!
>>
>> reg
>>    
>
> Reg,
>
> Like any brick wall built with bricks and mortar if you keep chipping
> away at the mortar the whole house will ball into rubble.
>
> Michael
>  

true, so very true but....
in this case, the bricks are one on the other... no morter, just solid
stone!

reg
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Re: A way forward?

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 08.12.2007 15:13, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
generate the following:? :

> On 08.12.2007 07:52, squaredancer wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>  
>> On 08.12.2007 14:33, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
>> generate the following:? :
>>    
>>> On 08.12.2007 05:53, Gervase Markham wrote:
>>>
>>>  --- Original Message ---
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>>>> What would the purpose of the new newsgroup be? My immediate concern is
>>>>> that it would segregate support traffic.
>>>>>      
>>>>>          
>>>> This is an important concern.
>>>>
>>>> We need to nail this down; I thought I knew what n.t.mm and now m.t.mm
>>>> did, but now more people are coming into the conversation saying
>>>> different things and I'm not so sure any more.
>>>>
>>>> Let me try this from the top, starting from first principles:
>>>>
>>>> - Any group in the mozilla.support hierarchy is intended to be used for
>>>> supporting end-users in achieving things with Mozilla products. It
>>>> should strongly discourage off-topic messages.
>>>>
>>>> - Any group in the mozilla.test hierarchy is intended to be used for
>>>> testing purposes. It is therefore envisaged that such groups would not
>>>> have a "community" or "readers" as such - people post messages to test
>>>> particular features or problems, see if things work, and then leave.
>>>>
>>>> - Any group in the mozilla.general hierarchy is for general, usually
>>>> non-Mozilla-project related and probably high-traffic, discussion. There
>>>> is no such thing as off-topic. However, people should never be required
>>>> to join one of these groups in order to get support, or to do a test, or
>>>> to achieve any other purpose.
>>>>
>>>> Now, if the current m.t.mm group is used for both testing and support
>>>> (is it?), then that's a problem. It's a problem because it's being used
>>>> for support yet it's not in mozilla.support; it's a problem because it's
>>>> being used for testing yet people are having to come in there for
>>>> support and being bombarded with test messages.
>>>>
>>>> So does this mean we need a mozilla.support.multimedia (although it
>>>> would need another name; that one's too ambiguous) for helping people
>>>> with their multimedia message posting problems (who _has_ those,
>>>> anyway?) as well as a test group and a discussion group?
>>>>
>>>> Gerv
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>> My vote is the last paragraph. You need a MM support/testing venue as
>>> well as a MM discussion venue.
>>>
>>> MTMM is where the user comes to test as well as some short ONtopic
>>> discussion of the test. If the peer support user wishes to enhance the
>>> discussion further then he/she can direct the user to MGMM where
>>> everyone can participate therefore not limiting the discussion in MTMM.
>>> This scenario would be most beneficiail not only to the user posting the
>>> test but also to the myriad of anonymous readers that can also benefit
>>> from the discussion(s). You only need to create the MGMM, lay down the
>>> rules for both groups, appoint a moderator and off we go ... again. It's
>>> a win-win situation both for Mozilla and the user needing support. It's
>>> also a win situation for the current community. Everybody wins, nobody
>>> loses.
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>> .... as long as we don't get dumped all those posts:
>>
>> "I attached my Mom 5 pics - and they don't show"
>> "Make sure you *compose and send* in HTML format"
>>
>> IMO, *that* kind of support belongs right where it is now!
>>
>> reg
>>    
>
> My theory of supporting the user is if you know the answer then give it
> followed by, in the future your question may best be answered in xxxxxxx.xxx
>
>
>
>  

correct Jay but....
in the case of a future MGMM, it seems that gerv's tendency is leaning
towards channeling *ALL* posts that have media-content - be it
multimedia or simple gifs - towards the new group.
IMO that would be overkill and not serve the multimedia intentions (as
MTMM, NTMM)

reg
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Re: A way forward?

Chris Ilias-2
In reply to this post by squaredancer
On 12/8/07 8:22 AM, _squaredancer_ spoke thusly:
> 2) "Support" as you are probably thinking ("hey - I can't see this
> video" - -  "go to MTMM, they'll tell you how") is not how it works, per
> se!  Those who are there are regulars... they sort of "live there" ...
> that try out various multi-media functions that *are in*, or are
> *latently in* gecko products.
> The "support" part comes in via the other regulars, who are willing to -
> and do - put their system to the common use!

Going to a newsgroup, just because the person you want to contact is
there, is the type of thing I want to avoid. The Mozilla newsgroups are
separated by type of discussion, not by community. It is, in fact, one
big community.
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Re: A way forward?

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
On 08.12.2007 10:28, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 08.12.2007 05:53, Gervase Markham wrote:
>>
>>  --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>> What would the purpose of the new newsgroup be? My immediate concern is
>>>> that it would segregate support traffic.
>>> This is an important concern.
>>>
>>> We need to nail this down; I thought I knew what n.t.mm and now m.t.mm
>>> did, but now more people are coming into the conversation saying
>>> different things and I'm not so sure any more.
>>>
>>> Let me try this from the top, starting from first principles:
>>>
>>> - Any group in the mozilla.support hierarchy is intended to be used for
>>> supporting end-users in achieving things with Mozilla products. It
>>> should strongly discourage off-topic messages.
>>>
>>> - Any group in the mozilla.test hierarchy is intended to be used for
>>> testing purposes. It is therefore envisaged that such groups would not
>>> have a "community" or "readers" as such - people post messages to test
>>> particular features or problems, see if things work, and then leave.
>>>
>>> - Any group in the mozilla.general hierarchy is for general, usually
>>> non-Mozilla-project related and probably high-traffic, discussion. There
>>> is no such thing as off-topic. However, people should never be required
>>> to join one of these groups in order to get support, or to do a test, or
>>> to achieve any other purpose.
>>>
>>> Now, if the current m.t.mm group is used for both testing and support
>>> (is it?), then that's a problem. It's a problem because it's being used
>>> for support yet it's not in mozilla.support; it's a problem because it's
>>> being used for testing yet people are having to come in there for
>>> support and being bombarded with test messages.
>>>
>>> So does this mean we need a mozilla.support.multimedia (although it
>>> would need another name; that one's too ambiguous) for helping people
>>> with their multimedia message posting problems (who _has_ those,
>>> anyway?) as well as a test group and a discussion group?
>>>
>>> Gerv
>>
>> My vote is the last paragraph. You need a MM support/testing venue as
>> well as a MM discussion venue.
>>
>> MTMM is where the user comes to test as well as some short ONtopic
>> discussion of the test. If the peer support user wishes to enhance the
>> discussion further then he/she can direct the user to MGMM where
>> everyone can participate therefore not limiting the discussion in MTMM.
>
> thats going to get confusing.
>
> "I want to know how to insert youtube into my email" --
> which group do I go to?

mozilla.support.whichever_mail_client

> "How does this look?" -- which group do I go to?

MGMM

> "here's a pic of my house" -- which group do I go to?

MGMM



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Re: A way forward?

Chris Ilias-2
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
On 12/7/07 8:20 PM, _JoeS_ spoke thusly:

> Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>> It sounds to me like a replacement for the web-developer newsgroup.
>> P.S. HTML and CSS are not multimedia. :-)
>
> Indeed...You might call our posts mini-web pages, and certainly HTML and
> CSS are required.
> I'll bet they would like to put up a viewable example there as well.
> And maybe they could learn a thing or two (and vica-versa) by
> participating in the new group as well.

So "multimedia" is not the correct term. It's more about rich email
authoring. (I'm not confident "rich" is even the correct term for it.
Perhaps even HTML email authoring.)

So to clarify, if someone is asking:
"What script do I use to insert foo in my web page?":
mozilla.web-developers.general

"What script do I use to insert foo in my mail/news message?": [the new
newsgroup]

"How do I insert foo script in my message?": mozilla.support.*

Leaving the binary configuratoin issue aside, I just want to get a vivid
definition for the newsgroup's purpose; so we can pick the best name,
know what belongs there, *and* what doesn't belong there.
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Re: A way forward?

Chris Ilias-2
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 12/8/07 1:31 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
> On 08.12.2007 10:28, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
>
>> "here's a pic of my house" -- which group do I go to?
>
> MGMM

We /all/ have pics and stuff we'd like to share for social reasons. I
don't buy that Mozilla needs a newsgroups for it.

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Re: A way forward?

Jay Garcia
On 08.12.2007 13:03, Chris Ilias wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 12/8/07 1:31 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>> On 08.12.2007 10:28, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
>>
>>> "here's a pic of my house" -- which group do I go to?
>>
>> MGMM
>
> We /all/ have pics and stuff we'd like to share for social reasons. I
> don't buy that Mozilla needs a newsgroups for it.
>

Then you take the postion that the existing community desolve itself and
returns to their roots on secnews. That's what all this mayhem and
sudden re-educate me on an old topic is all about then. This has already
been discussed many times on THIS server in the last few days, ie., the
reason for MTMM and MGMM, what gets posted where and when. In m.general
they talk about anything under the sun, politics, wine, beer, computers,
cars, etc. ad infintum. In mozilla.GENERAL.multimedia they talk about
images, songs,  pics of their house as well as discuss the binary that
was uploaded to MTMM. Are you alluding to the sense that with only an
MTMM that binaries get uploaded there or link to same that no discussion
take place there about those links or uploads, keeping in mind that it
is a dedicated TEST arena and not a DISCUSSION arena. If that is the
case then were should the at-length discussions take place?


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Re: A way forward?

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
On 08.12.2007 19:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Chris Ilias to
generate the following:? :

> On 12/8/07 8:22 AM, _squaredancer_ spoke thusly:
>  
>> 2) "Support" as you are probably thinking ("hey - I can't see this
>> video" - -  "go to MTMM, they'll tell you how") is not how it works, per
>> se!  Those who are there are regulars... they sort of "live there" ...
>> that try out various multi-media functions that *are in*, or are
>> *latently in* gecko products.
>> The "support" part comes in via the other regulars, who are willing to -
>> and do - put their system to the common use!
>>    
>
> Going to a newsgroup, just because the person you want to contact is
> there, is the type of thing I want to avoid.
This post shows just how much you understand about what is going on!

Chris - the new group, as per gerv's vision will NOT include you - nor
ANY of your envisions!
Get it into your thick head that gerv is at least trying damage control
and stop trying to sabotage any efforts to repair what YOU have destroyed.

You simply *do not understand* the priciples of the MM groups, such as
have been working well until now and will work in the future - but ONLY
if you stay far, far away!

reg

copied and posted to NTMM
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Re: A way forward?

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 08.12.2007 20:19, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
generate the following:? :

> On 08.12.2007 13:03, Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>  
>> On 12/8/07 1:31 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>    
>>> On 08.12.2007 10:28, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>> "here's a pic of my house" -- which group do I go to?
>>>>        
>>> MGMM
>>>      
>> We /all/ have pics and stuff we'd like to share for social reasons. I
>> don't buy that Mozilla needs a newsgroups for it.
>>
>>    
>
> Then you take the postion that the existing community desolve itself and
> returns to their roots on secnews. That's what all this mayhem and
> sudden re-educate me on an old topic is all about then. This has already
> been discussed many times on THIS server in the last few days, ie., the
> reason for MTMM and MGMM, what gets posted where and when. In m.general
> they talk about anything under the sun, politics, wine, beer, computers,
> cars, etc. ad infintum. In mozilla.GENERAL.multimedia they talk about
> images, songs,  pics of their house as well as discuss the binary that
> was uploaded to MTMM. Are you alluding to the sense that with only an
> MTMM that binaries get uploaded there or link to same that no discussion
> take place there about those links or uploads, keeping in mind that it
> is a dedicated TEST arena and not a DISCUSSION arena. If that is the
> case then were should the at-length discussions take place?
>
>
>  

Jay - it's as I said - he is digging the grave before the child is born!

See the *stupid* remark he put in a reply to my post to gerv...
HE (chris) doesn't want people to go to a group because someone else is
there!

That practice has NEVER been mentioned, by anyone.  Just where does he
get this crap from??
Where does he get the power-crazed idea from, that HIS WISHES are
paramount??

If gerv is reading this, please note.... these are the kind of actions
that get chris a bad reputation - interpreting things into posts that
are not there, then jumping on them as if they are the cause of all evil!

Do you, gerv, see in my post to you, any reference AT ALL to users
"going to groups just to contact people who are there" - it is pure
mental fantasy on Chris' part!

reg
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Re: A way forward?

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by squaredancer
On 08.12.2007 14:02, squaredancer wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 08.12.2007 19:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Chris Ilias to
> generate the following:? :
>> On 12/8/07 8:22 AM, _squaredancer_ spoke thusly:
>>  
>>> 2) "Support" as you are probably thinking ("hey - I can't see this
>>> video" - -  "go to MTMM, they'll tell you how") is not how it works, per
>>> se!  Those who are there are regulars... they sort of "live there" ...
>>> that try out various multi-media functions that *are in*, or are
>>> *latently in* gecko products.
>>> The "support" part comes in via the other regulars, who are willing to -
>>> and do - put their system to the common use!
>>>    
>>
>> Going to a newsgroup, just because the person you want to contact is
>> there, is the type of thing I want to avoid.
> This post shows just how much you understand about what is going on!
>
> Chris - the new group, as per gerv's vision will NOT include you - nor
> ANY of your envisions!
> Get it into your thick head that gerv is at least trying damage control
> and stop trying to sabotage any efforts to repair what YOU have destroyed.
>
> You simply *do not understand* the priciples of the MM groups, such as
> have been working well until now and will work in the future - but ONLY
> if you stay far, far away!
>
> reg
>
> copied and posted to NTMM

Maybe Chris needs to explain to everyone what his role, duties, concern
and his part in the decision making process is on this server seeing as
how he's always getting himself in the line of fire. He keeps using "we"
 in most every reply. I can make my intentions know and use private mail
to Gerv but I have no part in the decision making, only a suggestion maker.

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Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: A way forward?

squaredancer
On 08.12.2007 21:24, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
generate the following:? :

> On 08.12.2007 14:02, squaredancer wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>  
>> On 08.12.2007 19:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Chris Ilias to
>> generate the following:? :
>>    
>>> On 12/8/07 8:22 AM, _squaredancer_ spoke thusly:
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> 2) "Support" as you are probably thinking ("hey - I can't see this
>>>> video" - -  "go to MTMM, they'll tell you how") is not how it works, per
>>>> se!  Those who are there are regulars... they sort of "live there" ...
>>>> that try out various multi-media functions that *are in*, or are
>>>> *latently in* gecko products.
>>>> The "support" part comes in via the other regulars, who are willing to -
>>>> and do - put their system to the common use!
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>> Going to a newsgroup, just because the person you want to contact is
>>> there, is the type of thing I want to avoid.
>>>      
>> This post shows just how much you understand about what is going on!
>>
>> Chris - the new group, as per gerv's vision will NOT include you - nor
>> ANY of your envisions!
>> Get it into your thick head that gerv is at least trying damage control
>> and stop trying to sabotage any efforts to repair what YOU have destroyed.
>>
>> You simply *do not understand* the priciples of the MM groups, such as
>> have been working well until now and will work in the future - but ONLY
>> if you stay far, far away!
>>
>> reg
>>
>> copied and posted to NTMM
>>    
>
> Maybe Chris needs to explain to everyone what his role, duties, concern
> and his part in the decision making process is on this server

maybe - but he really should practice (for about a week) in front of a
mirror!


> seeing as
> how he's always getting himself in the line of fire. He keeps using "we"
>  in most every reply.

yeah - mostly, but in the above post he slipped a definitiv "I want..." in

> I can make my intentions know and use private mail
> to Gerv but I have no part in the decision making, only a suggestion maker.
>
>  

don't intend to drag you in anyplace (you wouldn't come anyway *lol* )

reg
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