A way forward?

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Re: A way forward?

Chris Ilias-2
On 12/7/07 6:55 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
> On 07.12.2007 17:37, Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>> On 12/7/07 6:28 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>> What would the purpose of the group be?
>
> To carry on in the tradition of NTMM.

Which is...? :-)

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Re: A way forward?

JoeS-3
Chris Ilias wrote:

> On 12/7/07 6:55 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>> On 07.12.2007 17:37, Chris Ilias wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/7/07 6:28 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>> What would the purpose of the group be?
>>
>> To carry on in the tradition of NTMM.
>
> Which is...? :-)
>
To explore and expand the multimedia capabilities of the Geckos, and help others to do so
with help and example.
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Re: A way forward?

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
On 07.12.2007 17:56, Chris Ilias wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 12/7/07 6:55 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>> On 07.12.2007 17:37, Chris Ilias wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/7/07 6:28 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>> What would the purpose of the group be?
>>
>> To carry on in the tradition of NTMM.
>
> Which is...? :-)
>

I give up.

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Marketing,Staff and Forums Consultant
Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: A way forward?

Chris Ilias-2
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
On 12/7/07 7:03 PM, _JoeS_ spoke thusly:

> Chris Ilias wrote:
>> On 12/7/07 6:55 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>> On 07.12.2007 17:37, Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/7/07 6:28 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>>> What would the purpose of the group be?
>>>
>>> To carry on in the tradition of NTMM.
>>
>> Which is...? :-)
>>
> To explore and expand the multimedia capabilities of the Geckos, and
> help others to do so
> with help and example.

How is it different from support groups, dev.tech groups, QA groups, and
web-developer groups? I would just like a more defined explanation, so
we know where to draw the line of hat posts belong where.
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Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
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Re: A way forward?

Leonidas Jones-2
In reply to this post by Irwin Greenwald-4
Irwin Greenwald wrote:
> On 12/7/2007 12:28 PM, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>>> On 12/7/2007 12:18 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>> On Dec 7, 2:46 pm, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
/snip/

>>> Thanks for *both* of your comments Jay from one of the non Christian
>>> members of the community.
>>>
>>
>> Well Irwin, they are the Psalms of David, are they not?  :)
>>
>> Lee
>
> Nor am I a Jew.
>

I should know better, never assume.

Lee
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Re: A way forward?

JoeS-3
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias wrote:

> On 12/7/07 7:03 PM, _JoeS_ spoke thusly:
>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>> On 12/7/07 6:55 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>>> On 07.12.2007 17:37, Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/7/07 6:28 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>>>> What would the purpose of the group be?
>>>>
>>>> To carry on in the tradition of NTMM.
>>>
>>> Which is...? :-)
>>>
>> To explore and expand the multimedia capabilities of the Geckos, and
>> help others to do so
>> with help and example.
>
> How is it different from support groups, dev.tech groups, QA groups, and
> web-developer groups? I would just like a more defined explanation, so
> we know where to draw the line of hat posts belong where.

Practically all support request about html css or embedding sounds or images are much better served
in a venue where examples can see actually seen. A text only answer can be very cumbersome, and as
far as actual composition goes, virtually impossible.
Very simple to ask the poster to try something, then analyze the attempt.
Do you remember the photographer that was trying to use a template to display his product ?
He was convinced it would not work in the Geckos. Members of the multimedia community fixed his problem very quickly.

Joe
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Re: A way forward?

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
On 07.12.2007 18:13, Chris Ilias wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 12/7/07 7:03 PM, _JoeS_ spoke thusly:
>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>> On 12/7/07 6:55 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>>> On 07.12.2007 17:37, Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/7/07 6:28 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>>>> What would the purpose of the group be?
>>>>
>>>> To carry on in the tradition of NTMM.
>>>
>>> Which is...? :-)
>>>
>> To explore and expand the multimedia capabilities of the Geckos, and
>> help others to do so
>> with help and example.
>
> How is it different from support groups, dev.tech groups, QA groups, and
> web-developer groups? I would just like a more defined explanation, so
> we know where to draw the line of hat posts belong where.

It's a subgroup of m.general like m.general.multimedia except that it
will be the home for the current MM community to call their own rather
than be relegated to a more extensive m.general free for all group. Only
other difference is that it will be peer-chosen-moderated unlike
m.general which for the most part isn't moderated.

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Marketing,Staff and Forums Consultant
Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: A way forward?

Irwin Greenwald-4
In reply to this post by Leonidas Jones-2
On 12/7/2007 4:14 PM, Leonidas Jones wrote:

> Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>> On 12/7/2007 12:28 PM, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>>> Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>>>> On 12/7/2007 12:18 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 7, 2:46 pm, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> /snip/
>
>>>> Thanks for *both* of your comments Jay from one of the non Christian
>>>> members of the community.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well Irwin, they are the Psalms of David, are they not?  :)
>>>
>>> Lee
>>
>> Nor am I a Jew.
>>
>
> I should know better, never assume.
>
> Lee

It's OK!

--
Irwin

Please do not use my email address to make requests for help.
Knowledge Base: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Main_Page
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Re: A way forward?

Chris Ilias-2
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
On 12/7/07 7:26 PM, _JoeS_ spoke thusly:

> Chris Ilias wrote:
>> How is it different from support groups, dev.tech groups, QA groups,
>> and web-developer groups? I would just like a more defined
>> explanation, so we know where to draw the line of hat posts belong where.
>
> Practically all support request about html css or embedding sounds or
> images are much better served
> in a venue where examples can see actually seen. A text only answer can
> be very cumbersome, and as
> far as actual composition goes, virtually impossible.
> Very simple to ask the poster to try something, then analyze the attempt.
> Do you remember the photographer that was trying to use a template to
> display his product ?
> He was convinced it would not work in the Geckos. Members of the
> multimedia community fixed his problem very quickly.

It sounds to me like a replacement for the web-developer newsgroup.
P.S. HTML and CSS are not multimedia. :-)

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List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia
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Re: A way forward?

JoeS-3
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
Gervase Markham wrote:

>
> I maintain that mozilla.test.multimedia needs to be used for its proper
> purpose. I would generally maintain that Mozilla resources should be
> used for purposes connected with the Mozilla project. But I also
> understand that due to some misunderstandings we appear to have
> inherited a mostly-unconnected community who have been living in one of
> our newsgroups for two years now.

But all connected to the common desire to see Mozilla products succeed and not be known as impotent
in the realm of multimedia in mailnews.

> So, if it turns out that moving back to the secnews server is not
> possible or desirable, I am willing to look into the possibility of
> creating a "mozilla.general.multimedia" group (or perhaps you might take
> the opportunity to choose a better name?) as a new home for this
> community. Please discuss this amongst yourselves and let me know if
> you'd like me to do this.

Most assuredly Gerv, thank you for the great compromise.

> The group may be required to be moderated by Giganews; if that's true,
> the community can choose a rubber-stamp moderator as long as they agree
> to abide by whatever rules Giganews put in place, and not permit any
> illegal content.

Those rules from Giganews should be formalized as in a terms of use statement.
In the early days of mtmm they initially throttled back the bandwidth so as to make the group virtually unusable.
That may have been unintentional but I think we need to know what rules they expect us to observe.

JoeS

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Re: A way forward?

JoeS-3
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias wrote:

> On 12/7/07 7:26 PM, _JoeS_ spoke thusly:
>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>> How is it different from support groups, dev.tech groups, QA groups,
>>> and web-developer groups? I would just like a more defined
>>> explanation, so we know where to draw the line of hat posts belong
>>> where.
>>
>> Practically all support request about html css or embedding sounds or
>> images are much better served
>> in a venue where examples can see actually seen. A text only answer
>> can be very cumbersome, and as
>> far as actual composition goes, virtually impossible.
>> Very simple to ask the poster to try something, then analyze the attempt.
>> Do you remember the photographer that was trying to use a template to
>> display his product ?
>> He was convinced it would not work in the Geckos. Members of the
>> multimedia community fixed his problem very quickly.
>
> It sounds to me like a replacement for the web-developer newsgroup.
> P.S. HTML and CSS are not multimedia. :-)
>
Indeed...You might call our posts mini-web pages, and certainly HTML and CSS are required.
I'll bet they would like to put up a viewable example there as well.
And maybe they could learn a thing or two (and vica-versa) by participating in the new group as well.

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Re: A way forward?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by Leonidas Jones-2
Leonidas Jones wrote:
> Gervase Markham wrote:
> I would like to make the point, and I think I can speak for most of us,
> that we feel that Grant/Peter Potamus should be allowed to be a
> contributor in good standing of this proposed new group.

I agree with this part, in the new group he should be allowed to post
there, and any ban of him there, would be in accordance with the *new*
groups rules/policy/moderator (I have a feeling Chris I wouldn't want to
take up that role)

 > His banning,
> regardless of one's personal impression of him, was not fair or
> justified in this case.
>

In the case for the existing group, I feel his banning was justified,
but if in the creation of a new group; Chris I feels satisfied Peter
would not abuse the old group, I would support Chris "unbanning" him as
well.  But that should be left up to Chris I (or a new moderator if
something comes of a community petition; or simply Chris stepping down
-- which I don't personally think is needed)

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Re: A way forward?

Terry R.
On 12/7/2007 5:44 PM On a whim, Justin Wood (Callek) pounded out on the
keyboard

> Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> Gervase Markham wrote:
>> I would like to make the point, and I think I can speak for most of us,
>> that we feel that Grant/Peter Potamus should be allowed to be a
>> contributor in good standing of this proposed new group.
>
> I agree with this part, in the new group he should be allowed to post
> there, and any ban of him there, would be in accordance with the *new*
> groups rules/policy/moderator (I have a feeling Chris I wouldn't want to
> take up that role)
>
>  > His banning,
>> regardless of one's personal impression of him, was not fair or
>> justified in this case.
>>
>
> In the case for the existing group, I feel his banning was justified,
> but if in the creation of a new group; Chris I feels satisfied Peter
> would not abuse the old group, I would support Chris "unbanning" him as
> well.  But that should be left up to Chris I (or a new moderator if
> something comes of a community petition; or simply Chris stepping down
> -- which I don't personally think is needed)
>

Well, banning someone without giving fair warning is unjustified,
contrary to your thoughts on the issue.  Especially when the same thing
he was banned for was something that has been going on all along.  It
was a vendetta, plain and simple.

--
Terry R.
Anti-spam measures are included in my email address.
Delete NOSPAM from the email address after clicking Reply.
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Re: A way forward?

Leonidas Jones-2
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
> Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> Gervase Markham wrote:
/snip/

>> regardless of one's personal impression of him, was not fair or
>> justified in this case.
>>
>
> In the case for the existing group, I feel his banning was justified,
> but if in the creation of a new group; Chris I feels satisfied Peter
> would not abuse the old group, I would support Chris "unbanning" him as
> well.  But that should be left up to Chris I (or a new moderator if
> something comes of a community petition; or simply Chris stepping down
> -- which I don't personally think is needed)
>

Justin, I'm not sure how you could say his banning was justified, he was
simply following the existing practices of the group.  Many, many users
did exactly the same thing.  If he is to be singled out to be banned, I
am not sure how that can be seen as fair. Everyone who did so should be
banned, or no one.

To call the practice into question, to impose rules that were not
clearly understood by the users, well, okay, there was a lot of
miscommunication in the formation of this group. Now its being cleared
up, and a fresh start is a great idea.

Still to have singled out Grant for one post, when so many others had
done exactly the same thing, how can you call that justifed?

Lee
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Re: A way forward?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
Gerv wrote:
<<snip>>

Ok, so after reading all the comments in this thread I propose:

*Yes

Conditions:
* We do not direct people asking CSS/HTML/Other support questions in
other groups there *instead* of those currently suited groups, if they
ask here; well I guess they can be answered here.
* If a user can't find an answer within a "reasonable" (needs actual
number) time to their solution in the regular support related groups
they can be directed here.
* If a support thread in a regular group *needs* a newsgroup post w/
binary data to actually support the user, they can be shown this group
[effort should be made to ask the <person> if they are able to show
their example in a website easily first].
* If moderation is required, a community-chosen/supported moderator (or
group of moderators) who agree to giganews conditions (whatever they
actually are)
* Other general "binary/multimedia" related chatter that doesn't belong
any-where else.

Does not belong in the new group, and belongs in MTMM:
* Any multimedia post intended to _TEST_ the capabilities of a mozilla
product -- to be used as bug fixing, feature examination, or simply as
"proof of concepts" with how other UA's and the Mozilla UA support a
particular post/feature.

Thoughts?
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Re: A way forward?

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 08.12.2007 01:09, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
generate the following:? :

> On 07.12.2007 17:56, Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>  
>> On 12/7/07 6:55 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>    
>>> On 07.12.2007 17:37, Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>> On 12/7/07 6:28 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>>> What would the purpose of the group be?
>>>>        
>>> To carry on in the tradition of NTMM.
>>>      
>> Which is...? :-)
>>
>>    
>
> I give up.
>
>  

yepp - he is digging the grave, even before the child is born!  Talk
about power-crazed...

AND it's about time that he is told that, IF or WHEN the MGMM group gets
up and running, HE will have NO PART in it - by mutual agreement of the
users, in accordance with the offer made by gerv!

reg
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Re: A way forward?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by Leonidas Jones-2
Leonidas Jones wrote:

> Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
>> Leonidas Jones wrote:
>>> Gervase Markham wrote:
> /snip/
>>> regardless of one's personal impression of him, was not fair or
>>> justified in this case.
>>>
>>
>> In the case for the existing group, I feel his banning was justified,
>> but if in the creation of a new group; Chris I feels satisfied Peter
>> would not abuse the old group, I would support Chris "unbanning" him
>> as well.  But that should be left up to Chris I (or a new moderator if
>> something comes of a community petition; or simply Chris stepping down
>> -- which I don't personally think is needed)
>>
>
> Justin, ...<snip>...

I really don't know why we need 3 or so threads to handle this part of
the conversation...

> Many, many users did exactly the same thing.

No argument from me there...

> If he is to be singled out to be banned, I  
> am not sure how that can be seen as fair.

Life is _never_ "fair". Once you realize that you'll live a happier life.

> Everyone who did so should be banned,

Agree'd as per past understanding of rules.

(Or Chris I can decide that bannings are not needed/warranted based on
obvious misunderstanding in rules)

> or no one.

This is rediculous, to imply that because someone happens to miss one
person, or even a single person's prior posting is an argument NOT to
ban others (or them in the future) is silly.

When you were in school, if a teacher wasn't around when a bully hit
you, or if a bully hit you yet the teacher turned their backs to it
(essentially ignoring it), would you feel the *same* way about "or no
one" if another bully is in trouble later for that same thing?

> To call the practice into question, to impose rules that were not
> clearly understood by the users, well, okay, there was a lot of
> miscommunication in the formation of this group. Now its being cleared
> up, and a fresh start is a great idea.
>

Agreed

> Still to have singled out Grant for one post, when so many others had
> done exactly the same thing, how can you call that justifed?

Reading that thread, even before I got to Chris I's "reason" for banning
him, I knew *why* he was banned. (note I did first read Grant's "I was
banned" statement where in that thread he linked to the original thread
in MTMM)

Then again I do agree that I knew the original intent of *M*TMM and
chose not to subscribe to it, as it was outside the scope of my interest.

I also do not disagree that Chris I and peter seem to dislike each
other, that fact, I feel is obvious. However I do not feel it would
actually have made any difference here if Chris I had never seen peter's
name before just now as far as that issue goes. (had I been the
moderator I admit, I probably would have chosen a route similar if not
exactly to Chris I myself, and I have -nothing- against peter)

--
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Re: A way forward?

Gus Richter
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

> Gerv wrote:
> <<snip>>
>
> Ok, so after reading all the comments in this thread I propose:
>
> *Yes
>
> Conditions:
> * We do not direct people asking CSS/HTML/Other support questions in
> other groups there *instead* of those currently suited groups, if they
> ask here; well I guess they can be answered here.
> * If a user can't find an answer within a "reasonable" (needs actual
> number) time to their solution in the regular support related groups
> they can be directed here.
> * If a support thread in a regular group *needs* a newsgroup post w/
> binary data to actually support the user, they can be shown this group
> [effort should be made to ask the <person> if they are able to show
> their example in a website easily first].
> * If moderation is required, a community-chosen/supported moderator (or
> group of moderators) who agree to giganews conditions (whatever they
> actually are)
> * Other general "binary/multimedia" related chatter that doesn't belong
> any-where else.

I feel that _any question_ regarding _HTML in Mail_ should be directed
to that group. Simply so and that is all. Which other group is suitable
in your opinion?

HTML meaning other than Test/Plain, regarding anything not capable in
Text/Plain and only in HTML Mode.
i.e. Inserting anything that people want to out in the wild. Floating
pictures of their kids with text on the side, embedded videos to send to
family members - whatever. People want to be able to do that and want
help to do it. Etc., etc.

> Does not belong in the new group, and belongs in MTMM:
> * Any multimedia post intended to _TEST_ the capabilities of a mozilla
> product -- to be used as bug fixing, feature examination, or simply as
> "proof of concepts" with how other UA's and the Mozilla UA support a
> particular post/feature.
>
> Thoughts?

Direct what you want to MTMM, but you will find that nobody will be
there. No devs ever came to conduct any tests except for only one
extention developer at one time. The testing you mention were conducted
by regulars only, which will be gone over to the new MGMM and/or NTMM,
or do you envision them coming back to test at MTMM again under Chris
Ilias' scrutany? No, MTMM will be Chris Ilias' very private sandbox.

Please Justin, leave it alone and let's see what Gerv and JoeS can come
up with. If anything, try to get Chris Ilias to keep quiet in the
discussion about MGMM before he ruins "the way forward".

--
Gus
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Re: A way forward?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Gus Richter wrote:

> Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
>> Gerv wrote:
>> <<snip>>
>>
>> Ok, so after reading all the comments in this thread I propose:
>>
>> *Yes
>>
>> Conditions:
>> * We do not direct people asking CSS/HTML/Other support questions in
>> other groups there *instead* of those currently suited groups, if they
>> ask here; well I guess they can be answered here.
>> * If a user can't find an answer within a "reasonable" (needs actual
>> number) time to their solution in the regular support related groups
>> they can be directed here.
>> * If a support thread in a regular group *needs* a newsgroup post w/
>> binary data to actually support the user, they can be shown this group
>> [effort should be made to ask the <person> if they are able to show
>> their example in a website easily first].
>> * If moderation is required, a community-chosen/supported moderator
>> (or group of moderators) who agree to giganews conditions (whatever
>> they actually are)
>> * Other general "binary/multimedia" related chatter that doesn't
>> belong any-where else.
>
> I feel that _any question_ regarding _HTML in Mail_ should be directed
> to that group. Simply so and that is all. Which other group is suitable
> in your opinion?

"almost" _any question_ regarding HTML *in mail* surely belongs in the
new group (where we need to example/test said ability as actually working)

The question of "how do I enable HTML in mail" etc. type stuff, surely
doesn't need to be there.

>
> HTML meaning other than Test/Plain, regarding anything not capable in
> Text/Plain and only in HTML Mode.
> i.e. Inserting anything that people want to out in the wild. Floating
> pictures of their kids with text on the side, embedded videos to send to
> family members - whatever. People want to be able to do that and want
> help to do it. Etc., etc.
>

>> Does not belong in the new group, and belongs in MTMM:
>> * Any multimedia post intended to _TEST_ the capabilities of a mozilla
>> product -- to be used as bug fixing, feature examination, or simply as
>> "proof of concepts" with how other UA's and the Mozilla UA support a
>> particular post/feature.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> Direct what you want to MTMM, but you will find that nobody will be
> there. No devs ever came to conduct any tests except for only one
> extention developer at one time. The testing you mention were conducted
> by regulars only, which will be gone over to the new MGMM and/or NTMM,
> or do you envision them coming back to test at MTMM again under Chris
> Ilias' scrutany? No, MTMM will be Chris Ilias' very private sandbox.
>
> Please Justin, leave it alone and let's see what Gerv and JoeS can come
> up with. If anything, try to get Chris Ilias to keep quiet in the
> discussion about MGMM before he ruins "the way forward".
>

And here you are including Chris as a pathway to the final use, I do not
see that; and I see no reason to include HIM as a reason to say "well,
we don't like him, so we don't want to use this ALLREADY existing group
for a feature that BELONGS THERE" hence my proposal.

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~Justin Wood (Callek)
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Re: A way forward?

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
Gervase Markham wrote:
> as long as they agree
> to abide by whatever rules Giganews put in place, and not permit any
> illegal content.

You and Chris keep remarking about giganews rules, but I
have as yet been seen any type of reference on where to find
them.  So, instead of saying there are rules, how about
posting those "giganews rules" somewhere so everybody can
read them and try to understand them?

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