A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

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A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ludovic Hirlimann-3
Hi,

I'm writing down the process to add/edit information regarding ISPs to
the list of ISP thunderbird will be able to access when creating a new
account using the auto configuration feature in TB3.

First draft as been posted at :
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Autoconfiguration:Process_to_edit_ISP_list

Please comment and discuss here I will update the wiki with your feedback.

I have a few question on which I would love to have your input :

     * Shall we make a distinction between a ISP providing the data and
a user providing the data ?
     * Domain Highjacking - how do we deal with that ?
     * Who should initially get the rights to commit the information (1) ?
     * How do we grant new users the power to do so ?(2)

(1) (2) Ideas are welcome here - I don't think we need to have many
people - but we should think about it now.


Ludovic
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http://www.spreadthunderbird.com/aff/79/2
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ben Bucksch
On 28.05.2009 17:46, Ludovic Hirlimann wrote:
> Please comment and discuss here I will update the wiki with your feedback.

I don't think we should have a bug for each addition/change. Esp. not in
the beginning. I'm expecting 100-1000 ISPs, and a bug causes at least 10
mails and even more steps, so that's up to 10000 steps.
Also, if only staff can change it, there's a clear bottleneck.

We were more thinking of a community approach, with a (very simple)
database.

1. Somebody submits a configuration. That could happen via a web form or
by a button the Account Manager in Thunderbird.
2. A script makes some basic checks: Does the domain of email address
and imap server match? In case of alternative domains (live.com,
live.de, live.fr), do the WHOIS records match, esp. DNS server? Does the
MX (incoming SMTP mail server) of the email address domain match the
imap server domain?
3. Those passing the script test could be put online directly, or after
minimal checks by a reviewer. Those failing the test could undergo more
scrutiny by a reviewer.
4. The record gets put live.


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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ben Bucksch
In reply to this post by Ludovic Hirlimann-3
On 28.05.2009 17:46, Ludovic Hirlimann wrote:
> Please comment and discuss here I will update the wiki with your feedback.

I don't think we should have a bug for each addition/change. Esp. not in
the beginning. I'm expecting 100-1000 ISPs, and a bug causes at least 10
mails and even more steps, so that's up to 10000 steps.
Also, if only staff can change it, there's a clear bottleneck.

We were more thinking of a community approach, with a (very simple)
database.

1. Somebody submits a configuration. That could happen via a web form or
by a button the Account Manager in Thunderbird.
2. A script makes some basic checks: Does the domain of email address
and imap server match? In case of alternative domains (live.com,
live.de, live.fr), do the WHOIS records match, esp. DNS server? Does the
MX (incoming SMTP mail server) of the email address domain match the
imap server domain?
3. Those passing the script test could be put online directly, or after
minimal checks by a reviewer. Those failing the test could undergo more
scrutiny by a reviewer.
4. The record gets put live.


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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Dennis Melentyev-2
On 29.05.2009 2:39, Ben Bucksch wrote:

> On 28.05.2009 17:46, Ludovic Hirlimann wrote:
>> Please comment and discuss here I will update the wiki with your
>> feedback.
>
> I don't think we should have a bug for each addition/change. Esp. not in
> the beginning. I'm expecting 100-1000 ISPs, and a bug causes at least 10
> mails and even more steps, so that's up to 10000 steps.
> Also, if only staff can change it, there's a clear bottleneck.
>
> We were more thinking of a community approach, with a (very simple)
> database.
>
> 1. Somebody submits a configuration. That could happen via a web form or
> by a button the Account Manager in Thunderbird.
> 2. A script makes some basic checks: Does the domain of email address
> and imap server match? In case of alternative domains (live.com,
> live.de, live.fr), do the WHOIS records match, esp. DNS server? Does the
> MX (incoming SMTP mail server) of the email address domain match the
> imap server domain?
> 3. Those passing the script test could be put online directly, or after
> minimal checks by a reviewer. Those failing the test could undergo more
> scrutiny by a reviewer.
> 4. The record gets put live.

+1
I'd prefer to have a button in account setup dialog to "Report Settings".
Once settings done and checked to be working, one can report them to the
community by simple pressing the button. Without username/password and
other sensitive info, sure.

Even more, ISP support could do this themselves. Also, mozilla could
offer some kind of "Mozilla-friendly ISP" banner for such ISPs.

As a result, "Account settings" wizard could query community database
for the list of known ISP's in the region or worldwide.

/dennis
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Mark Banner-2
In reply to this post by Ben Bucksch
On 29/05/2009 00:39, Ben Bucksch wrote:
> On 28.05.2009 17:46, Ludovic Hirlimann wrote:
>> Please comment and discuss here I will update the wiki with your
>> feedback.
>
> I don't think we should have a bug for each addition/change. Esp. not in
> the beginning. I'm expecting 100-1000 ISPs, and a bug causes at least 10
> mails and even more steps, so that's up to 10000 steps.

Well the other option is not bugzilla, but some other processing system.
My guess is there's more lightweight systems about.

> Also, if only staff can change it, there's a clear bottleneck.

That could be true but I'd assert it would most likely only be for the
initial phase where this is opened up. Once we've got the initial set
through, I'd expect there to be a lowish level of changes from month to
month which would be easier for only a couple of people to handle.

I think its worth remembering Mozilla Messaging is providing the
service, if we allow an incorrect/fake set up, then someone could
disclose their details unintentionally and it'd be Mozilla Messaging
held accountable. That doesn't stop Mozilla Messaging having non-staff
aid the process or access to publish the results, but I'd there may be
agreements put in place or a final check by a Mozilla Messaging staff
member.

> 2. A script makes some basic checks: Does the domain of email address
> and imap server match? In case of alternative domains (live.com,
> live.de, live.fr), do the WHOIS records match, esp. DNS server? Does the
> MX (incoming SMTP mail server) of the email address domain match the
> imap server domain?
> 3. Those passing the script test could be put online directly, or after
> minimal checks by a reviewer. Those failing the test could undergo more
> scrutiny by a reviewer.

I'd be very concerned about this approach. With some basic knowledge, I
could quite easily set up something that would pass all the criteria of
the script, I probably wouldn't even have to set up much of a web page
if at all. Give it a name similar to someone else, and have it listed.
Then just wait for the account info to come in. This might not work that
well because of the fact we base it on email addresses, but it could
still happen if based on miss-typed addresses.

I think a script can aid a lot of the process, but I think there has to
be a human step somewhere in all cases.

Standard8
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Nikolay Shopik
In reply to this post by Dennis Melentyev-2
On 29.05.2009 13:13, Dennis Melentyev wrote:
> I'd prefer to have a button in account setup dialog to "Report Settings".
Also we don't really need that in Thunderbird itself, instead write an
extension for that.
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ludovic Hirlimann-3
In reply to this post by Ben Bucksch
On 5/29/09 1:39 AM, Ben Bucksch wrote:
> On 28.05.2009 17:46, Ludovic Hirlimann wrote:
>> Please comment and discuss here I will update the wiki with your
>> feedback.
>
> I don't think we should have a bug for each addition/change. Esp. not in
> the beginning. I'm expecting 100-1000 ISPs, and a bug causes at least 10
> mails and even more steps, so that's up to 10000 steps.

True - so the model I took on while writing this process is the one used
to add CA authorities to the mozilla security stack. And I'd rather have
good data then hurried data that needs chagning all the time. Using
Bugzilla gives us alos a good tracking and history tool.

> Also, if only staff can change it, there's a clear bottleneck.

So no the idea is not to only have staff do the change - just the final
change so it becomes usable for all production clients out there.  We
want to use the nightly build to be able to check the configurations -
this does not need to be pushed by staff. As I said the fact that we
want staff to push to production is to ensure :
        1) that mozillamessaging is responsible for the push to Thunderbird users
        2) that in case of a dispute complains will go to mozillamessaging

> We were more thinking of a community approach, with a (very simple)
> database.
>
> 1. Somebody submits a configuration. That could happen via a web form or
> by a button the Account Manager in Thunderbird.

This would need to be written and debugged.

> 2. A script makes some basic checks: Does the domain of email address
> and imap server match? In case of alternative domains (live.com,
> live.de, live.fr), do the WHOIS records match, esp. DNS server? Does the
> MX (incoming SMTP mail server) of the email address domain match the
> imap server domain?

This would not work for hosted domains for instance.

> 3. Those passing the script test could be put online directly, or after
> minimal checks by a reviewer. Those failing the test could undergo more
> scrutiny by a reviewer.

How would you track that ?

> 4. The record gets put live.

see above.

--
Ludovic Hirlimann MozillaMessaging QA lead
http://www.spreadthunderbird.com/aff/79/2
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ben Bucksch
In reply to this post by Mark Banner-2
On 29.05.2009 11:23, Mark Banner wrote:

>> 2. A script makes some basic checks: Does the domain of email address
>> and imap server match? In case of alternative domains (live.com,
>> live.de, live.fr), do the WHOIS records match, esp. DNS server? Does the
>> MX (incoming SMTP mail server) of the email address domain match the
>> imap server domain?
>> 3. Those passing the script test could be put online directly, or after
>> minimal checks by a reviewer. Those failing the test could undergo more
>> scrutiny by a reviewer.
>
> I'd be very concerned about this approach. With some basic knowledge,
> I could quite easily set up something that would pass all the criteria

How so?

You can't have imap.live.com (usually not even imap.fred.live.com).

If you manage to get you.com into the DB, and then try to make live.de
an alternative domain for you.com, live.de will have a different DNS
server than you.com, and the script will catch that. If you make the DNS
server the same as the one for live.de, then the DNS server won't have
records for your domain, and you can't do anything.

And these were just examples of checks we could make - if you come up
with a specific attack, we could find a check to counter it.

> might not work that well because of the fact we base it on email addresses

Yes. The system was intentionally crafted like that.

> I think a script can aid a lot of the process, but I think there has
> to be a human step somewhere in all cases.

What would a human reasonably add? If you get a config for racoon.co.es,
how can you verify that the config is correct? Wouldn't you essentially
go what I described above?

Only think I know would be a webpage (on the ISP's domain) that
describes the config - but that's not much more secure than above, esp.
given that the official descriptions are often in quite unofficial
locations, like forums, random FAQs, subdomains etc..
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ben Bucksch
In reply to this post by Ludovic Hirlimann-3
On 29.05.2009 14:16, Ludovic Hirlimann wrote:
> This would need to be written and debugged.

Compared to the amount of work and spam 1000 bugzilla bugs cause, that's
small.

>> 2. A script makes some basic checks: Does the domain of email address
>> and imap server match? In case of alternative domains (live.com,
>> live.de, live.fr), do the WHOIS records match, esp. DNS server? Does the
>> MX (incoming SMTP mail server) of the email address domain match the
>> imap server domain?
>
> This would not work for hosted domains for instance.

Hosted domains (myname.com) are not covered by the ISP config DB. It's
specifically for ISPs, with - say - at minimum 10000 users, or 3000 TB
users.

The document said we need to find other tricks for hosted domains,
corporate servers etc.pp..

Hosted domains could also use the ISP config fetch (that is still
pending review, BTW).

>> 3. Those passing the script test could be put online directly, or after
>> minimal checks by a reviewer. Those failing the test could undergo more
>> scrutiny by a reviewer.
>
> How would you track that ?

Write a column in the DB.
I'd probably make a table for the config, and a column for "version",
and a column for "reviewed" (boolean) and "reviewedby". Delivered would
be the highest version with reviewed=true. Whatever works, but nothing
fancy.

Ben
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ben Bucksch
In reply to this post by Nikolay Shopik
On 29.05.2009 11:28, Nikolay Shopik wrote:
> Also we don't really need that in Thunderbird itself, instead write an
> extension for that.

Yes. And it would be fairly easy to write, I think.
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Mark Banner-2
In reply to this post by Ben Bucksch
On 29/05/2009 23:37, Ben Bucksch wrote:

>> I'd be very concerned about this approach. With some basic knowledge,
>> I could quite easily set up something that would pass all the criteria
>
> How so?
>
> You can't have imap.live.com (usually not even imap.fred.live.com).
>
> If you manage to get you.com into the DB, and then try to make live.de
> an alternative domain for you.com, live.de will have a different DNS
> server than you.com, and the script will catch that. If you make the DNS
> server the same as the one for live.de, then the DNS server won't have
> records for your domain, and you can't do anything.

Ok, so then my speeling one would be an "easy" attack.
>
> And these were just examples of checks we could make - if you come up
> with a specific attack, we could find a check to counter it.

Spellings? I doubt you could script that easily.

>> I think a script can aid a lot of the process, but I think there has
>> to be a human step somewhere in all cases.
>
> What would a human reasonably add? If you get a config for racoon.co.es,
> how can you verify that the config is correct? Wouldn't you essentially
> go what I described above?

The human step can be to look at the website and check it looks valid -
check that this thing exists and its not just a set of dns records and
fake servers.

Standard8
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ben Bucksch
On 30.05.2009 09:58, Mark Banner wrote:
> Ok, so then my speeling one would be an "easy" attack.

What do you mean? A user trying to configure [hidden email] ?

That attack would require you to own the domain yahooo.com, at which
point you're also "attacking" the webmail of yahoo, which yahoo
hopefully took care of. That's old-school domain grabbing, and we're not
more at risk than other places.

Spelling errors in the configure file would either not pass the script
or not work (you don't own the DNS server).

Ben
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ben Bucksch
In reply to this post by Mark Banner-2
On 30.05.2009 09:58, Mark Banner wrote:
> Ok, so then my speeling one would be an "easy" attack.

What do you mean? A user trying to configure [hidden email] ?

That attack would require you to own the domain yahooo.com, at which
point you're also "attacking" the webmail of yahoo, which yahoo
hopefully took care of. That's old-school domain grabbing, and we're not
more at risk than other places.

Spelling errors in the configure file would either not pass the script
or not work (you don't own the DNS server).

> The human step can be to look at the website and check it looks valid
> - check that this thing exists and its not just a set of dns records
> and fake servers.

Problem is: "Looks valid" is vulnerable to old-style phishing. I can
mirror a whole ISP website on "customer.yahoo.com", if yahoo.com hands
our subdomains to customers, if you want to be picky.

Bottom line: I did the initial list of ISP configs, and did the
verifications, as diligently as I could. I noticed that most of this
could not only be done by a script, but probably more diligently and
thoroughly can a human would bother to.

Ben
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ben Bucksch
In reply to this post by Mark Banner-2
On 30.05.2009 09:58, Mark Banner wrote:
> Ok, so then my speeling one would be an "easy" attack.

What do you mean? A user trying to configure [hidden email] ?

That attack would require you to own the domain yahooo.com, at which
point you're also "attacking" the webmail of yahoo, which yahoo
hopefully took care of. That's old-school domain grabbing, and we're not
more at risk than other places.

Or do you mean spelling errors in the configure file? They would either
not pass the script (considered attack) or not work (you don't own the
DNS server of the domain).

> The human step can be to look at the website and check it looks valid
> - check that this thing exists and its not just a set of dns records
> and fake servers.

Problem is: "Looks valid" is vulnerable to old-style phishing. I can
mirror a whole ISP website on "customer.yahoo.com", if yahoo.com hands
our subdomains to customers, if you want to be picky.

Bottom line: I did the initial list of ISP configs, and did the
verifications, as diligently as I could. I noticed that most of this
could not only be done by a script, but probably more diligently and
thoroughly can a human would bother to.

Ben
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ludovic Hirlimann-3
In reply to this post by Ben Bucksch
On 5/30/09 9:35 PM, Ben Bucksch wrote:

> Bottom line: I did the initial list of ISP configs, and did the
> verifications, as diligently as I could. I noticed that most of this
> could not only be done by a script, but probably more diligently and
> thoroughly can a human would bother to.

If we go the script what do you propose when the script finds a false
positive ? would the config be added manually ? Would we modify the
script ? how would we track that this particular configuration did not
pass the script ?

ludo
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ludovic Hirlimann-3
In reply to this post by Ludovic Hirlimann-3
On 5/28/09 5:46 PM, Ludovic Hirlimann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm writing down the process to add/edit information regarding ISPs to
> the list of ISP thunderbird will be able to access when creating a new
> account using the auto configuration feature in TB3.
>
> First draft as been posted at :
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Autoconfiguration:Process_to_edit_ISP_list

Ok I've edited the wiki so we can start going on with adding data. As a
matter of getting things started in a timely manner we've choosen to
start with a known process and use bugzilla to do the initial work.

At a later stage we will add tools to automate the process.

I've added the use of bugzilla's status to track down what bugs should
or should not be taken care of. We've also thought that as
Mozillamessaging is responsible for the list the component to create
bugs in should be in Mozillamessaging product.

Once I get feedback on the process I'll start creating bugs for people
to use.

Ludo
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http://www.spreadthunderbird.com/aff/79/2
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

chaz (Bugzilla)
In reply to this post by Ludovic Hirlimann-3
On 28/05/09 17:46, Ludovic Hirlimann wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm writing down the process to add/edit information regarding ISPs to
> the list of ISP thunderbird will be able to access when creating a new
> account using the auto configuration feature in TB3.
>
> First draft as been posted at :
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Autoconfiguration:Process_to_edit_ISP_list
>
>
> Please comment and discuss here I will update the wiki with your feedback.
>
> I have a few question on which I would love to have your input :
>
> * Shall we make a distinction between a ISP providing the data and a
> user providing the data ?
> * Domain Highjacking - how do we deal with that ?
> * Who should initially get the rights to commit the information (1) ?
> * How do we grant new users the power to do so ?(2)
>
> (1) (2) Ideas are welcome here - I don't think we need to have many
> people - but we should think about it now.
>
>
> Ludovic

Rather than maintaining a list, why not implement something along the
lines of jabber?

For example, using DNS SRV:-

_imaps-client._tcp.example.com. IN SRV 5 0 993 imaps.example.com.

My personal preference would be to use NAPTR in addition to SRV for the
service resolution, for example:-

example.com. IN NAPTR 5 5 "s" "IMAPS+D2T" "" _imaps._tcp.example.com.
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

chaz (Bugzilla)
On 04/06/09 11:34, Chris Hills wrote:
> example.com. IN NAPTR 5 5 "s" "IMAPS+D2T" "" _imaps._tcp.example.com.

Oops, should read:-

example.com. IN NAPTR 5 5 "s" "IMAPS+D2T" "" _imaps-client._tcp.example.com.
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

chaz (Bugzilla)
On 04/06/09 11:35, Chris Hills wrote:
> Oops, should read:-
>
> example.com. IN NAPTR 5 5 "s" "IMAPS+D2T" ""
> _imaps-client._tcp.example.com.

In hindsight, -client and -server are not appropriate here since imaps
connections are only between clients and servers, not servers and
servers, so in all the previous lines, "_imaps-client" can be replaced
by "_imaps".
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Re: A more formal process to add ISP information to the auto-configuration list

Ludovic Hirlimann-3
In reply to this post by chaz (Bugzilla)
On 6/4/09 11:34 AM, Chris Hills wrote:
> On 28/05/09 17:46, Ludovic Hirlimann wrote:
[snip]

> Rather than maintaining a list, why not implement something along the
> lines of jabber?
>
> For example, using DNS SRV:-
>
> _imaps-client._tcp.example.com. IN SRV 5 0 993 imaps.example.com.
>
> My personal preference would be to use NAPTR in addition to SRV for the
> service resolution, for example:-
>
> example.com. IN NAPTR 5 5 "s" "IMAPS+D2T" "" _imaps._tcp.example.com.

Because this is not doable with necko at the moment. So we would need to
extend/expand/rewrite the part of the mozilla code that deals with dns
... Maintaining a list seemed the best solution to bring easy
configuration to Thunderbird users.


Ludo
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